The fold-back down

Joy

Location
East Sussex
I'm going to try to train this - having tried and failed in the past. I want to train it because as we move up the levels in Rally we are losing marks because Molly lies down by sitting first. (So it's not important in the grand scheme of things but something I would like to achieve.)
In past attempts I've tried luring by moving a treat diagonally downwards between her front paws but she has always just stepped backwards and put her head down without any lowering of the front half and then if I haven't released the treat she has then lay down in her usual way or offered other behaviours or just wandered off! (Or occasionally I've been so sorry for her puzzled look that I've given her the treat anyway :giggl: )
So my plan is to put a dining room chair between us and hold a treat under it so that she needs to lie down to reach it. If I can get her to do it just once and click and treat I think we'll have it. She is very clued in to the clicker and gets excited when I produce it - it's just getting that first one.

If anyone has trained this with a dog who didn't find it easy I'd be glad of any other suggestions.
 
I love the way Hannah Brannigan trains it. Her course Devil in the Details is awesome and a complete geek-fest! :rock:

She starts with getting the dogs’ feet really planted without any paddling on platforms, and then working on the weight shifts from there.
The dog needs a strong core to FBD maintaining a nice flat back.
 

Joy

Location
East Sussex
Well I tried using the chair and it was immediately successful. I wish I had videoed that, but didn't! We then moved on to without the chair but with a lure and I did video this. This was the first set of attempts after the chair and I think I'm quite pleased. When I went through frame by frame she was widening her back legs (which is what I have read they need to do) and pretty much collapsing backwards. The last one was the best. She's had enough for now but I think tomorrow I might use a front foot target as well.

 

Joy

Location
East Sussex
I didn't practise it yesterday because I met my dog training friend and we had a session in a hired field doing Fenzi TEAM stuff plus a bit of rally.
So this evening Molly seemed to have forgotten it completely and was back to going down by sitting first. I went back to getting the chair out again and once she'd done a few of those it was as though something clicked in her brain and she was back to the level she was at in the video above. I did do just three at the end without food in my hand but still using the luring gesture (no video).
I suppose she has such a long history of being rewarded for getting into a down in any way and staying there that it's hard for her to understand that how she moves into a down matters. I think I need to click as she moves rather than once she's down - so need to improve my timing. I'm not convinced I can successfully train this but I thought I'd keep a record of my attempts here in order to keep me at it.
 
I think I need to click as she moves rather than once she's down
Yes, it's the mechanics you're reinforcing, not the end position. The position is just a result of the "how", and it's the "how" that's important here. When you eventually put it on its final cue, it should be a different word/visual to the one you currently use for what she's done historically, but I'm sure you already know that.
 
I just watched your video - this isn't really a FBD, even though she's not sitting first. In a FBD, the feet stay in the same position and the body folds. The front feet may slide forwards slightly, but they maintain contact with the ground, other than the back feet slightly widening to allow the hips to come in. If you watch Molly's feet, they all move forwards.

There's a great video in this article of a FBD - watch how the dog's feet are really planted. It's a thing of beauty :D

 
I'm glad you included the video, because I thought you meant sit>lay. Shamas does that, but I think he'd be awfully confused if we tried a lay from standing lol!

I've been considering his next "trick," perhaps I'll give this a go, see what he does
 

Joy

Location
East Sussex
I have been working very hard at this with Molly but we have found it difficult. I bought Hannah Brannigan's training book and have tried to follow the instructions in there - basically use a placeboard for the back feet, get them securely anchored, then teach a 'zen hand' in which the dog backs away from your hand to lure into position.
However, a back foot target was new to Molly and, although she 'got' it in each training session, by the next day we were back to square one again with her really puzzled about where to put her feet. I also struggled with the 'zen hand' so tried luring in the traditional way. I used high value treats because we were doing a new (and for Molly difficult) move, but this was hopeless - she was so desperate to get the food she went into a tizz, throwing all sort of behaviours at me that have been rewarded in the past.

Anyway by accident I came across a way that seems to have worked. I'm using a piece of foam as a kind of 'anti-placeboard', so her feet don't touch it, but it's a way of keeping them anchored. I used plain kibble as the food lure so it wasn't too exciting and I found that doing it in heel position worked better than me facing her. I've just started to use a hand without food.

This video is from today. In the first one I had a treat in my hand but after that it was an empty hand with a closed fist.

 

Candy

Biscuit Tin Guardian
I have been working very hard at this with Molly but we have found it difficult. I bought Hannah Brannigan's training book and have tried to follow the instructions in there - basically use a placeboard for the back feet, get them securely anchored, then teach a 'zen hand' in which the dog backs away from your hand to lure into position.
However, a back foot target was new to Molly and, although she 'got' it in each training session, by the next day we were back to square one again with her really puzzled about where to put her feet. I also struggled with the 'zen hand' so tried luring in the traditional way. I used high value treats because we were doing a new (and for Molly difficult) move, but this was hopeless - she was so desperate to get the food she went into a tizz, throwing all sort of behaviours at me that have been rewarded in the past.

Anyway by accident I came across a way that seems to have worked. I'm using a piece of foam as a kind of 'anti-placeboard', so her feet don't touch it, but it's a way of keeping them anchored. I used plain kibble as the food lure so it wasn't too exciting and I found that doing it in heel position worked better than me facing her. I've just started to use a hand without food.

This video is from today. In the first one I had a treat in my hand but after that it was an empty hand with a closed fist.

Oh, she does seem to be getting it, doesn't she? Clever girl! Well done!
 
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Anti place board, I love it! 😂
I wonder if the instability of the foam was upsetting her, which is why she wasn’t getting the feet on the pad?
Looking good, though! I really just buy Hannah’s book 😊
 
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Joy

Location
East Sussex
Anti place board, I love it! 😂
I wonder if the instability of the foam was upsetting her, which is why she wasn’t getting the feet on the pad?
Looking good, though! I really just buy Hannah’s book 😊
I had tried a solid board before this. I tried the foam because Hannah Brannigan recommended using something like a sofa cushion - though of course she intended the dog to stand on it. Molly will stand on it but keeps moving her feet around, the opposite of what is intended! (Awkward dog!)
 

Joy

Location
East Sussex
Update: It's going well in that I have introduced a new cue word ("Flat") and Molly will now do the movement in heel position on cue without a hand signal. However the foam pad has clearly become part of the cue as when I removed it we were back to her moving her feet again (not as much as previously, definitely not a sit, so at a pinch it would do for rally, but I'd really like to get it right.) Just checked the instructions in the HB book and she says to reduce the target to something flatter before removing it so I'll try that tomorrow.
 
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