The Troubled Social Life of Charlie Brown

[parseraisin]

One of the most difficult aspects of having Charlie Brown has been effectively fostering and managing his social life in the city, both with humans and other dogs.

Charlie is very, very excited by all social encounters. It is best if people ignore him because he jumps, he pants and though he is getting better, he really struggles to calm down. It isn’t clear if these encounters are positive or negative for him. I have similar doubts about his interactions with dogs. I noticed when he was young what seemed to be a yearning to interact, but he had several encounters in which dogs came to him barking while he was on lead, and I’m certain he was frightened. He did, however develop a degree of confidence and social skill, and we spent months 7-10 taking him once or twice a week to a dog park. He really loved this.

However, as he has headed into adolescence it has become more difficult to give him positive interactions with other dogs. When he was around 11 months old, he began to attract negative attention in his obedience class and also at the dog park. This attention was different than earlier encounters in which he was over enthusiastic and a dog told him off. Instead, in the later interactions dogs all have come to him and engaged him in rough play that suddenly becomes much too rough. Around six weeks ago, he was was attacked in our park by a dog who broke away from his owner. It was a complete surprise, Charlie was lying down on lead while I brushed him and the dog’s owner had to physically pull the dog away.

Charlie was left with a torn lip and broken nail and at this point, we have cut almost all contact with other dogs - no visits to the dog park for several months, and we don’t allow him to interact with dogs in our local park aside from one or two older animals who are known to be able to give and elicit a dignified sniff. This isn’t a popular position, and we are told often that we are too uptight, that he should be left off lead (against rules) and free to interact.

This feels like a lose lose situation. I realise from reading that his and other dogs’ behaviour is relatively common, and that it will pass as his hormone and energy levels settle. I also have learned several techniques for managing Charlie’s attention when other dogs are around or people pass too close - essentially making sure that he focuses on me or a toy or we do a small sniffing exercise.

These techniques work, but isolate him. At the same time, if we do allow an interaction we risk a bad encounter and he is a lot - so energetic, so over the top, he can’t calm down and folks don’t like that either! He is big they tell us! And strong! Didn't you socialise him? You really should get him into some classes! He needs to learn!

So, I have no question, really but I am just having a (very long!) moan. I worry that Charlie Brown is lonely and getting lonelier. I hope he passes this stage quickly and we are able to help him find ways to have a richer social life.

 

[Shamas mom]

Hi, I feel your frustration...I cannot give you advice, other than to perhaps call in a trainer, who has their own, stable dog with which to teach him social interactions--that worked for us, allowing us to then be picky about which dogs we socialised with

I have two dogs who have gone through periods of isolation, and I don't believe that you are doing the wrong thing. Better no interaction, than interactions that cause fear in my books!

I'm no professional, but I'll tell you where I stand with mine.

Shamas, who is now very social, went through a phase of being fear-aggressive. I began his introduction into the world of dogs by simply walking on the same street, and behind a dog. A good ways, so that he learned to be calm in the presence of dogs. It took a while to shorten the distance, but he had some deep-rooted issues that required professional help. I still, after 6years of having him, don't take him to see dogs outside our pack. He occasionally meets passersby, but only for a second. It has not harmed him. He's content to keep dogs at a distance. Very social for Shamas means that he sees a dog and pulls over to give a sniff as he walks by lol.

Trixie is more like your pup--so exciteable that I won't take her to dog parks, for fear that she'll be attacked or over-corrected for her enthusiasm. She's beginning to draw negative attention from other dogs because in her excitement, she fixates....which gets misconstrued as a challenge by other dogs. Being THAT direct is awfully rude! We are working on the fixation. . With Trixie, in order to allow a meeting, I look for one of two things:

1)young, wiggly, friendly(unlikely to take offence at her enthusiasm) with an owner who understands when I tell them that she's excitable and rude

2)older, and stable, so that any correction given is subtle enough not to spook the pup, yet clear enough that the people can see it and separate the dogs. I like my dad's dog for this, as she will curl a lip, then look at us to remove the offender. I'm trying to teach her to disengage if a lip curl occurrs so that we don't risk other dogs(ones we don't know) doing worse.

 

[HAH]

One of the most difficult aspects of having Charlie Brown has been effectively fostering and managing his social life in the city, both with humans and other dogs.

Charlie is very, very excited by all social encounters. It is best if people ignore him because he jumps, he pants and though he is getting better, he really struggles to calm down. It isn’t clear if these encounters are positive or negative for him. I have similar doubts about his interactions with dogs. I noticed when he was young what seemed to be a yearning to interact, but he had several encounters in which dogs came to him barking while he was on lead, and I’m certain he was frightened. He did, however develop a degree of confidence and social skill, and we spent months 7-10 taking him once or twice a week to a dog park. He really loved this.

However, as he has headed into adolescence it has become more difficult to give him positive interactions with other dogs. When he was around 11 months old, he began to attract negative attention in his obedience class and also at the dog park. This attention was different than earlier encounters in which he was over enthusiastic and a dog told him off. Instead, in the later interactions dogs all have come to him and engaged him in rough play that suddenly becomes much too rough. Around six weeks ago, he was was attacked in our park by a dog who broke away from his owner. It was a complete surprise, Charlie was lying down on lead while I brushed him and the dog’s owner had to physically pull the dog away.

Charlie was left with a torn lip and broken nail and at this point, we have cut almost all contact with other dogs - no visits to the dog park for several months, and we don’t allow him to interact with dogs in our local park aside from one or two older animals who are known to be able to give and elicit a dignified sniff. This isn’t a popular position, and we are told often that we are too uptight, that he should be left off lead (against rules) and free to interact.

This feels like a lose lose situation. I realise from reading that his and other dogs’ behaviour is relatively common, and that it will pass as his hormone and energy levels settle. I also have learned several techniques for managing Charlie’s attention when other dogs are around or people pass too close - essentially making sure that he focuses on me or a toy or we do a small sniffing exercise.

These techniques work, but isolate him. At the same time, if we do allow an interaction we risk a bad encounter and he is a lot - so energetic, so over the top, he can’t calm down and folks don’t like that either! He is big they tell us! And strong! Didn't you socialise him? You really should get him into some classes! He needs to learn!

So, I have no question, really but I am just having a (very long!) moan. I worry that Charlie Brown is lonely and getting lonelier. I hope he passes this stage quickly and we are able to help him find ways to have a richer social life.

This is tough @parseraisin , and I hear the strain you're feeling. Like you say, you're not looking for advice and are simply sharing - so sending you solidarity, and support, and validation - in my view, you're doing absolutely the right thing by Charlie Brown and looking out not only for his safety but for his needs too. I did read a trainer's post a while ago which stuck with me - she made the point that dogs are individuals just like humans, and have a similarly broad spectrum of desires for socialisation. Some love nothing more than bowling around with friends - the more the merrier. Some far prefer their own company, or that of a select small group including their humans. And many fall in between, with ebbs and flows depending on season and hormones and what they smelt earlier in their walk. Our boy Kipper can sometimes seem super eager to greet other dogs and (more often) humans - but once he's had a sniff, he's more than happy to move on. I think sometimes this is the most common approach for most dogs, but our world is often (mis)aligned towards "saying hello!" and for some reason placing greater value on dogs playing together and interacting heavily, rather than simply acknowledging each others' presence and carrying on with their business. My human instinct is far more towards the latter and that may well have influenced Kipper's preferences too.

My last thought is that you've labelled this as isolation a few times in your post. I wonder if you might view it more as meeting Charlie Brown's needs as they are in the present? Things may well change, and you sensibly recognise the infuence of other factors like hormones. So for now, you're keeping him safe and secure and not putting him in challenging situations, which are all things that help him right now. Sod the negative voices, you know your boy better than anyone and are doing best by him. Well done x

 

[Atemas]

Charlie was left with a torn lip and broken nail and at this point, we have cut almost all contact with other dogs

I’m so sorry that happened. Other members with male dogs will be more clued up with adolescence…..just wanted to give my support and I’m sure there are lots of ways to improve his social life if necessary. Are there places where you live where you can give him good exercise without meeting other dogs for the time being? I have to say I’m not a fan of dog parks. I used to worry about Red needing to be with other dogs but I don’t anymore - her relationship with us is the most important thing and playing games to strengthen that bond more important than seeking doggie interactions. There are dogs that like her and dogs that don’t; she likes certain dogs and there are some she doesn’t. I’ve learnt to manage the negative situations (sometimes hard and I don’t always do well). What I‘m trying to say (probably badly) is a rich social life really that important?

 

[Selina27]

I'm no behaviourist or +r trainer, all that I know about modern dog trainer comes from this forum or the good +trainers that I have found.
So I am not giving advice either!
But from what I do know it sounds like you are doing the right things to deal with his dog interactions.
I am sure that all of us who have had lively rambunctious Labs to deal with can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
I get what you mean about isolating him , but do you have a family? Does he get much from a busy household?
What I am trying to say is does he need to be with other dogs? Maybe doing some thing like scentwork or gundog training or anything that occupies his mind would fit the bill. Do you have access to a good +r training place?
These things also increase the bond we have with them aswell,

 

[parseraisin]

Hi everyone, thanks for chiming in. Rereading my post, I think I was maybe also espressing my own loneliness - cities are strangely lonely but socially intense places for dogs and humans!

@Shamas mom , thanks for sharing details of your dogs' temperments. I am so immersed in this experience and have no perspective on aspects of CBs character that are similar to others.

@HAH I agree, we have been working really hard to respond to what CB needs. We are focussed now on teasing out the boundaries between youthful exuberance and hormones.

@Atemas, yes, I also was and remain cautious about dog parks. When CB was younger there was a period when we really did need the space in order to give him a chance to run himself silly. We were were mostly lucky that he met some very nice older dogs who taught him a lot. And we stopped the visits as soon as they became strange, so I think there was no long term damage.

@Selina27 we do have a busy house but everyone was gone this week, and my post probably reflects our shared heartache at the quiet. I think he would love to do scentwork, and I begin to think he would also do very well with gundog training. However, he is very distractible and this has become much worse in his puberty so for now we are trying to maintain basic skills. But you raise an interesting point - it is likely he is bored and needs more to do - I'll have to work on this.

I also realise in reading your messages that part of our problem is that his exercise is not properly balanced between the snuffling he loves and the running he needs. Hopefully our schedule will settle down in the next few weeks and we can get him out into the woods.

 

[Atemas]

Too relieve any boredom - I don’t know how much space you have in your home but a great game is ‘Find the Fish’. I have 10 fish (Amazon) sprayed with a bit of Catnip. I hide then around the house whilst Red is ‘hiding’ (she goes in the utility room). I then say ‘Find the Fish’ and she brings each one to me and swaps for a tiny treat. It really uses her senses and brain and can be played anytime especially if the weather is poor outside. Also when Red was that age, I did a lot of trick training with her which she still remembers. All good brainwork and tiring too

 

[Candy]

My sweet GoodGirlJoy has also had some upsetting experiences with other dogs just going for her, for no reason that has been apparent to me, and I suspect not to her either, because she is such a little sweetheart that I can't think she would ever do anything to deliberately upset anyone.
As @Atemas has said though, I have found that games around the house and (fairly small) garden, like 'Find it!' ( probably similar to 'Find the fish') go down really well with her, infact anything that is a game and involves us interacting together makes her enormously happy. (Me too!)
I think we don't always have to do huge long walks involving lots of play with other dogs to keep our Labradors happy. They just need something to make them think and work things out, and to have meaningful and loving interactions with their humans on a regular basis, then on the whole I think they're pretty happy.
Pee Ess GGJ says 'I still love the Longlong walks toooo! Speshully if they are near the SEA!

 

[UncleBob]

Hi @parseraisin ,

I think many of us meander into dog ownership thinking that everything will be absolutely perfect and wonderful all the time. Our puppies will immediately sleep through the night without any unwanted escapes (be that liquid or solid!), they will instantly learn and never forget every cue we teach them, every other dog will love them and every person they meet (dog-lover or not) will also love them, and they will never get ill. And then reality headbutts us in the face!

Which is my roundabout way of saying that I think we often have unrealistic expectations for both our dogs and ourselves as dog owners.

Although he will be 10 years old this coming weekend I can still vividly remember Harvey as a puppy. He was known as Hurricane Harvey because he was so hugely enthusiastic about absolutely everything and everyone. At puppy class, we would have to have a 'time out' every 5 minutes or so because he was virtually strangling himself on his collar in his enthusiasm to greet other dogs and owners. When teaching the 'Stop' cue all the other dogs in the class would set-off at a trot and calmly come to rest the instant that the owner gave the cue - Harvey did 0 to Mach 2 in an instant and my hurried 'Stop' cue did result in him stopping his run ... but his momentum caused him to skid the rest of the way across the hall . And then adolescence hit - and Harvey became even more, well, Harvey.

I remember, in my ignorance, speaking with a well-regarded trainer about the way that Harvey behaved and whether we could stop it. 'No' she said 'And why would you want to? He is a fantastic character, full of the joys of life. He may never be calm enough to be an Assistance Dog or a Gundog but he will make a fantastic companion.'

Sorry, I'm digressing somewhat but what I'm trying to say is remember the old adage 'Train the dog in front of you.' Don't expect all dogs to be the same and to behave in the same way. If you think that it is best for Charlie not to go to the dog park then that is what you should do - don't let others pressure you into doing what you know isn't what Charlie wants or needs. Ignore popularity contests and assessments by others of whether you are uptight - look after Charlie and ignore the dog park denizens.

Also, a tip from another trainer 'Don't expect your dog to like and get on with all other dogs. That is as unrealistic as expecting you to like and get on with all other humans. It just doesn't work like that. Don't try to force something that isn't natural.' If you know that Charlie likes an approaching dog then, if the other owner is amenable, by all means, let them greet. On the other hand, if his hackles go up and you see that he is uncomfortable then help him out - avoid the situation by giving the other dog a wide berth (or even just turning 180 degrees and going back the way you came).

All of which can be summarised as: Your job is to do the best that you can for Charlie Brown - that doesn't mean taking advice from somebody whose expertise consists of having watched a couple of episodes of a TV program hosted by somebody whose philosophy on dog-training has been out of date for decades (you all know who I mean!). I think that you are doing the right thing and should keep doing it.

 

[Lab_adore]

Being at the bottom of the world, when we travel to somewhere like Europe or the UK we tend to save up our leave and make it a decent amount of time given that it takes so long to get there. December 2019 we took 7 weeks off and did a wonderful trip around Europe and also visited London. We don't have anyone to look after Maxx and we wanted to find a different boarding kennel to one that had a lot more free space. This was probably a mistake as the dog we put into the kennel did not have one ounce of agression. Mr Happy. It didn't help that while we were way most of Australia was on fire and our friends tell us the heat and smoke were unbearable. So poor Maxx was probably missing us and unhappy in the heat and atmosphere.

Soon after we returned (a few days before Australia announced it's first covid case - talk about timing!) we noticed Maxx getting agro at some dogs and we realised he probably got picked on in the kennel and, due perhaps to lack of human supervision, had to learn to defend himself. Over the years we now know which types of dogs he will not like and avoid them. There aren't many and mostly we can have a nice on-lead sniff with most dogs and carry on. He loves other labradors and Golden Retrievers plus he has some friends that we run into often that he has known all his life. He can have a bit of a romp with them of course

Like Alison @Atemas we don't like dog parks as we find they are often populated by feral humans and their by-association feral dogs. We also live in a city so off-lead is only allowed in dog parks so Maxx is on lead nearly all the time (we have a nice little beach by the river that only has one exit so he goes there every day for a hooley). We have a 15m long lead that we use in the park so he can trot around the trees and bushes

Maxx is a really happy dog and just like everyone said, work with the dog you have

 

[Selina27]

However, he is very distractible and this has become much worse in his puberty so for now we are trying to maintain basic skills. But you raise an interesting point - it is likely he is bored and needs more to do - I'll have to work on this.

What he's learnt already will still be there, even if puberty appears to have driven it out of both his mind and body! I didn't mean to infer that he is bored, it's just that I think Labs being so sociable they get a lot out of being involved in whatever is going on!

I think you're absolutely right , it's a question of balancing brain/nose work with his current physical needs.

Charlie Brown sounds gorgeous , any more photo's?