Building up time on a behaviour

[Natalie]

I've put this under scentwork as that is the area which I'm working on, but I think this could apply to any behaviour really, and I've never cracked it except in a sit or down stay, or for quiet in a crate.

Following some very helpful advice from @Ashley , I've got two round plastic containers, both different colours and sizes, inside which are my scent bottles. At the moment, I'm building up to a prolonged chin rest on the containers. We moved quickly from a look, to sniff, to nudge to touch, and then some of the time I am now getting a proper chin touch on the container, which is what I'm aiming for.... but it never lasts more than a split second. Other than holding a treat just out of reach of his nose- which I've only done twice to see if it worked- but this is basically bribing and I don't want to do that.

Am I being really impatient? As we are doing this for fun it's not that regular, so am I expecting too much too soon? But when do I stop rewarding a simple touch if it only lasts a second, how do I build it up to longer?

Sorry if this is a really rookie question... it feels a bit basic but I don't want either of us to get bored or frustrated with it.

 

[Anne123]

I don’t know if I understand this correctly. Its quite normal that they will get the scent out of container in a very short time. Finn did this too during and before man tracking. He sniffs and almost immediately he turns away his nose. That’s enough is like he says. I know this. We, on the order hand wanted him to sniff longer and properly. No need the trainer said. He had enough. Their noses are so delicate and far better then ours

 

[snowbunny]

Ooh, this is something I’m doing at the moment, too, as part of TEAM. I want the indication to be a prolonged nose touch.
The trick is to ensure your click is early. If you click when the dog is moving her nose away from the target, then you’re marking “take your nose off” and that’s when you get very quick jabbing with the nose rather than a sustained touch. So get the click in when the nose is on the way to the target and don’t try to build up duration too quickly. Do loads and loads of clicking early, don’t worry about duration as much as a deliberate and firm nose press. The duration will come once the dog realises that the click is for approaching and touching rather than removing the nose.

 

[Natalie]

No need the trainer said. He had enough.

I know what you are saying, and when we are mantrailing, then yes, there's no need for this, but I have decided this is what I'd like to do with it in the small, controlled home environment. Making life difficult, I know!

The trick is to ensure your click is early

Ah, ok, I'll use the clicker on this then, I was just marking with good boy, but I can see this is a good place to use it. I'd probably better charge it first with some simple stuff as haven't used it for ages.

 

[snowbunny]

I took a little video of this just now. I remembered a little trick: use a pot with treats in it to start off with. You can fade this to your scent profile later, but to get the behaviour, it's good to use something they are naturally attracted to - and food does well for that! This pot has a few holes in the lid.

So I already have a prolonged nose touch with this pot when I'm holding it in my hand, but it didn't translate to the pot being on the floor. All my dogs are used to targeting stuff on the floor with their feet, so all naturally wanted to stand on the pot

I tried to fade my hand by moving the pot closer to the floor, then on the floor with me holding it, then with it on top of my hand etc. But as soon as I wasn't touching it, they started using their feet. It was actually really interesting! So I started the behaviour fresh as a separate shaping exercise.

Setting up for a really likely behaviour, I have the pot in front of me, between me and the dog. As soon as I put the pot down, I'll have a clickable moment, as the dog puts their nose towards it. I feed to the side of the pot, so that the natural movement is then the head coming back towards it. You can see I have a really high rate of reinforcement, and you can see how it quite rapidly translates from just a slight move towards the pot to a prolonged nose touch.
You'll also see how at first Willow isn't sure if she's supposed to be doing something with her feet. When she actually paws at it, I pick it up to reset it, and immediately she investigates with her nose, which gets a click.

I'm not specifically asking for a harder nose touch or duration (until the end when I start to pause ever so slightly), but the deliberateness of the motion comes naturally from her understanding that the exercise is putting her nose on the target.

 

[Ashley]

Sorry Natalie, I totally missed this! One of the exercises we do daily to increase nose on scent is a colander on top of a bowl holding a scent vessel. Basically, when nose is at the bottom of the colander (resting on the floor) start by treat streaming. Lift bowl, repeat. This builds drive and duration to scent. Over time, try and increase the time between treats and reward not lifting nose. I’ve built up to Quinn not lifting her head at all with nose on the bottom between treats and it has led to her having a way better nose to scent on the boxes and when finding.

Someone in class is having trouble with holding nose on box, and one thing our instructor told him to try was holding the box upside down so the hole in the box is facing downward toward the dog and reward when nose touches, then increase how much pressure you are getting from nose on box. Same would apply by shaping what you’re aiming for (time/pressure). By holding it that way, you can feel how much he’s pushing against the box/scent. I know you said you are asking for a chin rest though, so not sure if this helps.