Carbon pawprint of our dogs’ food
- Thread starter M.F.
- Start date
Jacqui-S
Moderator
- Location
- Fife, Scotland
Too much heavy reading for me for a weekend......I am guessing we are bad humans.
It’s a podcast—no need for reading! I just included the web page link in case people couldn’t use this Apple link: Science Friction - ABC RN by ABC Radio National on Apple Podcasts
No, I wouldn’t say we’re bad humans. I really do believe dogs need to eat more meat. Gulp. Saying that is hard when I’m a vegetarian. But any animal (incl humans) that eats a lot of meat has a massive carbon footprint.
I think the solution is that humans keep fewer pets, and that humans have fewer offspring. And that humans become vegan and dogs eat more meat—that way the carbon footprint/pawprint is reduced while dogs still get to eat a better diet, as do humans.
But the number of pet dogs and cats in the world is astonishing.
No, I wouldn’t say we’re bad humans. I really do believe dogs need to eat more meat. Gulp. Saying that is hard when I’m a vegetarian. But any animal (incl humans) that eats a lot of meat has a massive carbon footprint.
I think the solution is that humans keep fewer pets, and that humans have fewer offspring. And that humans become vegan and dogs eat more meat—that way the carbon footprint/pawprint is reduced while dogs still get to eat a better diet, as do humans.
But the number of pet dogs and cats in the world is astonishing.
Leanne
Sniffer Dog
- Location
- Shropshire, UK
I am not giving up bacon for anyone.
Jacqui-S
Moderator
- Location
- Fife, Scotland
Hmm just saw the links at the bottom. Makes more sense now...duh!
Thank you
- Location
- Wellington, NZ
Oh thanks, this looks like an interesting episode!
I agree. Smaller families, and less reliance on animal products. I made a real concerted effort to go veggie one night per week earlier this year. Ugh, the drama from the peanut gallery (OH and kid). All that time and effort spent poring over recipe books, trying to find something to appease the carnivores, and all I got was grief. I gave up. And I just don't have the desire to cook a separate meal for me, and a carnie one for them. The world is going to have to get used to eating less meat, though, we just can't keep up with the demand from the growing middle class in Asia. Habits are going to have to change.
Sophie, The Greek Vegan has delicious recipes! I’m impressed you tried a meatless day. Well done! It’s quite a thing in Cape Town—Meatless Mondays.
I once tried to make a vegetarian “meat” meal for two friends who are meat n potatoes types. It was revolting!! Even they couldn’t eat it! I don’t like meat flavor or texture, so I wouldn’t normally try to mimic meat. But when I make veg that tastes like veg, it is delicious! Even ardent meat eaters like my cooking! ?
I once tried to make a vegetarian “meat” meal for two friends who are meat n potatoes types. It was revolting!! Even they couldn’t eat it! I don’t like meat flavor or texture, so I wouldn’t normally try to mimic meat. But when I make veg that tastes like veg, it is delicious! Even ardent meat eaters like my cooking! ?
- Location
- Wellington, NZ
Thanks for the link, I've flicked through and there are some immediately appealing recipes. I'll ignore the masses of chickpeas, I blooming hate them unless they're blitzed into hummus or falafel!
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I often cook veggie food, it's delicious done right. I love curries for that; I recently did a curry night and put on something like 11 dishes; I think 7 of them were veggie or vegan. Even made my own paneer because it's not something we can buy in Andorra.
I also once had a "chilli and movie" night for some friends, one of which is a vegetarian and the others most definitely not. I made two big pots of chilli, one vegan and the other regular. The carnivores were really tucking in to the vegan one. That said, I'm not naive enough to think I can convert people to vegetarianism or veganism through proving that the food can be equally delicious as meat-based meals. I can't even convince myself of that, after all.
I know very little about the environmental benefits ( and, to be completely honest, don't have a huge amount of interest, which is probably awful, but the free time I have isn't going to be spent reading up on it, sorry
) but the few claims I've seen seem to have holes in them. They usually compare an omnivorous diet with one that is vegan AND locally-produced. When I cook veggie or vegan food, I don't specifically look for local in-season produce. OK, where I am, I don't have much choice because that's all we can get unless we want frozen, but I'm pretty sure that most people doing their shopping in Tesco are going to buy what's available rather than what is local, because, let's face it, very little is local. People are too used to being able to buy their ingredients whatever the season and I think the average person, especially one who has already restricted their diet substantially by cutting out anything that is animal-derived, is going to be seriously put off by limiting that even more drastically by only being able to choose locally-produced ingredients.
The other thing that strikes me when they talk about getting rid of the massive farms which apparently have a huge environmental impact is, OK, but what about the farmers, the employees, the land-owners, the transport companies, the people who depend on this to survive? What are they all going to find to do instead? It sounds like an economic disaster. And what about the animals; are we going to let those sub-species become extinct? Keep them in zoos? They're not equipped to live in the wild, for the most part.
And what about fertilisers for all those vegetables? At the moment, bone meal is used extensively, as it is a by-product of the animal industry. The best alternative is chemical fertiliser.
Like I said, I don't know enough about the argument, but it's pretty clear it's not black and white.
I also once had a "chilli and movie" night for some friends, one of which is a vegetarian and the others most definitely not. I made two big pots of chilli, one vegan and the other regular. The carnivores were really tucking in to the vegan one. That said, I'm not naive enough to think I can convert people to vegetarianism or veganism through proving that the food can be equally delicious as meat-based meals. I can't even convince myself of that, after all.
I know very little about the environmental benefits ( and, to be completely honest, don't have a huge amount of interest, which is probably awful, but the free time I have isn't going to be spent reading up on it, sorry
) but the few claims I've seen seem to have holes in them. They usually compare an omnivorous diet with one that is vegan AND locally-produced. When I cook veggie or vegan food, I don't specifically look for local in-season produce. OK, where I am, I don't have much choice because that's all we can get unless we want frozen, but I'm pretty sure that most people doing their shopping in Tesco are going to buy what's available rather than what is local, because, let's face it, very little is local. People are too used to being able to buy their ingredients whatever the season and I think the average person, especially one who has already restricted their diet substantially by cutting out anything that is animal-derived, is going to be seriously put off by limiting that even more drastically by only being able to choose locally-produced ingredients.The other thing that strikes me when they talk about getting rid of the massive farms which apparently have a huge environmental impact is, OK, but what about the farmers, the employees, the land-owners, the transport companies, the people who depend on this to survive? What are they all going to find to do instead? It sounds like an economic disaster. And what about the animals; are we going to let those sub-species become extinct? Keep them in zoos? They're not equipped to live in the wild, for the most part.
And what about fertilisers for all those vegetables? At the moment, bone meal is used extensively, as it is a by-product of the animal industry. The best alternative is chemical fertiliser.
Like I said, I don't know enough about the argument, but it's pretty clear it's not black and white.
Yep, like most things, it’s complex. Would be so much easier if it were black and white.
One thing we do know (I’d cite papers if I had the energy after a long day) is that for every calorie derived from meat, the animal needs to eat 10x those calories. So, in simple terms, for every one person fed meat, you can feed 10 people on a vegan diet, utilizing the same plot of land. Farming animals uses a lot more natural resources, especially water, than farming equally nutritious vegetables, legumes, and grains.
In terms of jobs, you’d still be farming and needing workers. The product would be different. But people would still have jobs.
Regarding the animals: they’re killed as it is. They’re not living long, happy lives. The vast majority live lives of torture and misery. And then have their lives ended brutally and painfully. Pigs have it really cruel. Sows are confined for their entire lives to a cage in which they cannot move, suckling their piglets through the bars. Many pigs are killed in abattoirs by suffocation, and cry out and struggle for their last breaths. It’s heartbreaking.
I struggle with my conscious because of my choice to feed my dog meat. It doesn’t matter if you feed kibble or raw—it’s still requires another animal to die. We advocate kindness to our dogs, and yet ignore the cruelty metered out to other animals, who are also sentient beings. At least, as humans, we can choose a healthy vegan diet.
One thing we do know (I’d cite papers if I had the energy after a long day) is that for every calorie derived from meat, the animal needs to eat 10x those calories. So, in simple terms, for every one person fed meat, you can feed 10 people on a vegan diet, utilizing the same plot of land. Farming animals uses a lot more natural resources, especially water, than farming equally nutritious vegetables, legumes, and grains.
In terms of jobs, you’d still be farming and needing workers. The product would be different. But people would still have jobs.
Regarding the animals: they’re killed as it is. They’re not living long, happy lives. The vast majority live lives of torture and misery. And then have their lives ended brutally and painfully. Pigs have it really cruel. Sows are confined for their entire lives to a cage in which they cannot move, suckling their piglets through the bars. Many pigs are killed in abattoirs by suffocation, and cry out and struggle for their last breaths. It’s heartbreaking.
I struggle with my conscious because of my choice to feed my dog meat. It doesn’t matter if you feed kibble or raw—it’s still requires another animal to die. We advocate kindness to our dogs, and yet ignore the cruelty metered out to other animals, who are also sentient beings. At least, as humans, we can choose a healthy vegan diet.
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
Says who?
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Again, I don't know the subject matter, but this conclusion sounds way off. Animals don't eat solely human-quality food. They eat a lot of stuff that humans have no way of digesting, as well as other animal by-products. Not to mention that the animals themselves are doing their part to make the crops viable by fertilising them. It's a two-way street. And this is why the issue is so contentious; there is so much propaganda and bull - I'm sure on both sides of the argument, and pretty much all fuelled by money.
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
Very good point, so often over looked.
It’s not about the type of food animals eat, but the land and water required to grow the animals. For the same land and water, you can feed 10x more people. Animals are an inefficient way of producing food. Not to mention that cattle produce a lot of methane gas—a large contributor to global warming.
Yes, sludge from manure is used for fertilizer. Animal by-products are most certainly used—thankfully not wasted.
But the most concerning thing for me is the pain and suffering experienced by most farmed animals. If we feel it is so necessary to be kind to our dogs, why can’t we find it in our hearts to be kind to all animals?
You need only visit a factory farm where animals are raised for slaughter. And visit an abattoir. You don’t need to get the info second-hand.
Have you done that MF? My family are butchers and pig farmers
Yes.
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Aaanyway, I don't think anything positive is going to come from continuing with this; it's a very divisive topic and one that isn't going to foster the sort of atmosphere we want to keep here. We are all interested in the humane treatment of our dogs, that is what brings us together. We obviously have other interests outside of that that are very important to us, but there will be also be a division within this community with people on both sides. Where topics such as this foster division rather than inclusivity, I'm all for stopping them before anyone gets upset. Agreed?
I agree on the grounds that this forum is about dogs, and this thread has diverged from the original reason I created it, which was to think about the carbon footprint of dog food, and the astonishing number of pet dogs in the world compared to the human population.
And yet I am sorry that we are seeing the need for an echo chamber. It’s been niggling me since coming here, having viewed the various threads and “heard” the tone when a view is different. It’s not about this thread, but this thread has brought it to the surface for me. It’s about ensuring that the people who need advice do feel comfortable coming here and staying here, and receiving the advice they need to hear. I don’t think inclusivity can truly be fostered in an echo chamber.
I agree that there’s no point getting divisive over a topic that is not the focus of this forum. But I would like to think we could be open to hearing other views no matter how challenging they are to our own world view for the purpose of being able to win “the other” over for the better cause. I’m thinking: prong collars, e-collars, dogs home alone, etc. This thread has been an eye-opener for me in what it must be like to make a statement and feel admonished. I also need to hone my persuasive skills if I want to win over meat eaters for the good cause.
And yet I am sorry that we are seeing the need for an echo chamber. It’s been niggling me since coming here, having viewed the various threads and “heard” the tone when a view is different. It’s not about this thread, but this thread has brought it to the surface for me. It’s about ensuring that the people who need advice do feel comfortable coming here and staying here, and receiving the advice they need to hear. I don’t think inclusivity can truly be fostered in an echo chamber.
I agree that there’s no point getting divisive over a topic that is not the focus of this forum. But I would like to think we could be open to hearing other views no matter how challenging they are to our own world view for the purpose of being able to win “the other” over for the better cause. I’m thinking: prong collars, e-collars, dogs home alone, etc. This thread has been an eye-opener for me in what it must be like to make a statement and feel admonished. I also need to hone my persuasive skills if I want to win over meat eaters for the good cause.
You make a lot of assumptions. How do you know who eats meat and who doesn't? I heard this argument many times before and made my own choices long time ago.