Puppy annoyance

[VanillaBean]

I am not 100% sure how to deal with this one or if it even is an issues as such.

They play good together and when they have had enough they take a break most of the time. We have to separate them at times, which is easy enough.

What I have noticed over the last few days is that Honey will go harsher and harsher at Vanilla, especially around her face and neck area. This does involve a fair bit of growling from Honey. I am trying to let them play to allow Honey to learn where the boundary is, but in doing so Vanilla has let it go a bit longer I think.
In doing so she managed to get a small piece of her, which clearly upset Vanilla.
Problem with Vanilla is that she is soft and takes a lot before she will retaliate to anyone, so I think she never thought it would happen (and neither did I). It happened quick, but as soon it did they stopped.
So what is now happening like this morning was Vanilla woke up and first thing Honey did was go straight for her face to play. Same when Vanilla comes up the stairs and Honey is already at the top (easy to deal with as we just get Honey away before she gets up but never did it before).
The approach always seems to be a gentle one but then turns at the very last second if that makes sense. I now have Vanilla trying her best to get away from Honey most of the time since this especially around the face approach. When Vanilla now wants to get away completely she will try and jump up on me to get away, this I know is where she has had enough of what is going on...but of course having a little one following makes it hard to manage

They have played together since, but once Honey starts I now remove her. But she goes straight back in and carries on where she left off, and we repeat.

Am I missing something? I know Puppies get away with a fair bit and gradually it reduces, but I she seems to be getting worse at time. I know that Honey can go over her excitement level and maybe this is it, bit I have seen her go over it and she normally goes into zoomies around Vanilla and that is it....

 

[Granca]

Can you distract Honey with a tuggy toy, like a rope, and encourage them to play together with it? Mine still enjoy that, although Tuppence also likes to steal vetbed and taunts Wispa to play tuggy with that!

 

[VanillaBean]

They already play with a tuggy toy etc. and also where one will have a toy and tease them with it and the other one will chase to try and get it away and then after a while it swaps when the chaser gets it and roles are reversed. We try and distract as much as possible, but still stuck and what Honey will do is drop it and go straight for the jugular anyhow...but it is only in the last few days so not sure if it is that Honey has just got more confident (which I can understand growing up) or did we do something that we should not have done when she first got here in allowing them to play in a certain way

 

[Granca]

No, you haven’t done anything wrong. Honey is feeling her feet! Try training a stop command, like ‘enough’, so that they stop immediately on that cue. Then ensure they have some time out.

 

[Anne123]

When Finn was little he did the same to Euan. I therefore try to control them while they were together. And stepped in the moment he took a piece of Euan. Euan was a softy too. Let Finn do what he wanted. Never stood up for himself. I often wished he would do that. Eventually they got along very well, but it took time! Never left them alone together.
As soon as Finn started this biting in Euan, I tried to distract Finn. By playing with Finn alone, or sometimes by playing with them together with tow games.

 

[VanillaBean]

Thanks, we already have a stop cue 'enough' and they will have time out. It just seems that she goes straight back in for her face/neck and the of course now Vanills just wants to get away from it. What makes it hard is that sometimes Honeybwill come up and just want to snuggle, bit now Vanilla is a bit cautious for good reason.

 

[VanillaBean]

stepped in the moment

I do that now as sometimes it gets to much and you can tell. Give them some timeout.

Vanilla has always tolerated a lot before she snaps (apart from a humpty). But with Honey it just seems to be a next level of tolerance

 

[Boogie]

Yes - I have exactly the same with Tatze - she’s always too soft and lets the pups do whatever they want, then I have to rescue her! Sometimes encouraging them to have a game of tug with a toy helps.

If the pup is really OTT I put them on a lead. I have a rope lead for the purpose as that’s when they bite the lead too - so I let them bite the rope lead.

Tatze has two places the pup is never allowed - he chair and her (night) bed which is still in a crate. As soon as Tatze jumps on her chair I supervise the pup and don’t let them near her.

They soon learn - about the same time scale as bite inhibition with humans. Spencer was six months when he learned to play ‘properly’.

You can usually tell when the pup is getting too rough and stop the hooly. I have a cue ‘enough’ when the fish cubes come out. @snowbunny uses ‘scatter’ to stop all play.

I wish Tatze was like Zaba who has very clear boundaries for pup behaviour!

 

[VanillaBean]

Yes we don't let Honey near Vanilla's bed upstairs or downstairs anymore. We did the first few days on her bed downstairs. his was due to us not trying to change Vanilla's routine and she seemed to be OK with her on it. She also has her corner in our bedroom, that is her place. Honey has now learned that if Vanilla goes on there then it is all over.
Problem I have with the tug is that both want the same end so only works if I hold the middle. That is OK as don't mind.

 

[Granca]

Problem I have with the tug is that both want the same end so only works if I hold the middle.

This all sounds very familiar! Oddly enough, although Wispa is 'protective', she doesn't protect herself. When Tuppence was a puppy, Wispa would never stop her from trying to eat her food (Tuppence would glance at her bowl, then make a bee-line for Wispa's). Wispa would just stand back and let her get on with it if I didn't intervene. Wispa isn't good at setting boundaries for puppies and Vanilla sounds similar.