How do you explain R+ training to people who have never heard of it?

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I've tried explaining Carbon's R+ training to several people lately and get anything from eye-rolls and an explanation of how I need to establish dominance to the polite yet disappointing reaction of a friend who said it sounded all a bit too "crunchy" for her. ("Crunchy" = granola = hippies = woo woo out there)

So I'm interested in how everyone HERE explains it to the uninitiated?

 

[HAH]

“I’m all about positive training, so I don’t use punishment...” [eyes glaze over]... 10 mins later... “so in short, you wouldn’t work for no rewards would you? Oh, I’m sorry - was I keeping you?... bye...” {another year passes}

 

[Aitch]

I say "If you want the best results, give them the best results" and wait for them to ask me what I mean. Then I use my dogs to show them.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

[eyes glaze over].

Hey, if my eyes glaze over listening people tell me all about dominance and submission, I get to bore them about R+, right?

Then I use my dogs to show them.

I find I run into a lot of people who just think dogs are born a certain way. So if my dog is works well with me, he just came that way. I saw it with Brogan and now I'm seeing it with Carbon.

Tonight we were out for our last walk and went by a parti-coloured poodle who we saw quite a bit last summer on the river. Carbon and he would always do their little "Who is more macho" dance with a bit of harmless shouting. Tonight I said hello to his people and kept Carbon going - he looked at the other dog but then right back at me as he should. I could hear the poodle's human remark to her friend, "That dog is always so well-behaved!" Ha, ha! I'm SURE she doesn't realise he's the same dog who tangled with hers last summer.

 

[snowbunny]

So I'm interested in how everyone HERE explains it to the uninitiated?

I don’t anymore unless they specifically ask. I’m no longer a preacher, I just do what I do and answer questions if people have them. If they are asking, what exactly are they asking?

 

[HAH]

I don’t anymore unless they specifically ask. I’m no longer a preacher, I just do what I do and answer questions if people have them. If they are asking, what exactly are they asking?

Ahh, still a preacher here - and a bad one

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

If they are asking, what exactly are they asking?

Mainly it's in response to friends asking me what's so different about training Carbon vs. Brogan. I say it's a steep learning curve because it's a different way of training that I have to learn. They don't get it because didn't I already train Brogan and have done this all before? Then I say that the tasks are the same but the training protocol is completely different. That's when I get the question: "What's different?"

 

[snowbunny]

Ok, in that situation I’d say something along the lines of, “Oh, well our understanding of how dogs learn best has moved on since when I was training Brogan, so I’ve had to update my methods. Get rid of all that dominance stuff which has been shown to be nonsense, even though some outdated people still cling to it”
“We focus more on teaching the behaviours that we do want, rather than expecting the dog to guess and punishing him when he gets it wrong”

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Ok, in that situation I’d say something along the lines of, “Oh, well our understanding of how dogs learn best has moved on since when I was training Brogan, so I’ve had to update my methods. Get rid of all that dominance stuff which has been shown to be nonsense, even though some outdated people still cling to it”
“We focus more on teaching the behaviours that we do want, rather than expecting the dog to guess and punishing him when he gets it wrong”

OK, in that case I'm doing fairly well with my explanation - though we all know I'm more wordy.

 

[Emily]

I don’t anymore unless they specifically ask. I’m no longer a preacher, I just do what I do and answer questions if people have them. If they are asking, what exactly are they asking?

Me too.

 

[Atemas]

So I'm interested in how everyone HERE explains it to the uninitiated?

I just say ‘my approach is only ever to be kind’

 

[Selina27]

I think these days it depends who it is I'm talking to, and how interested they are as to what level I go to with explanations. What I do find quite useful is the concept of "good things happen -- if I lie quietly in my bed, if I stay close by my person" for example, so the dog chooses the behaviour we would like. Quite often this gets their interest and they want to know more.

I'm aware though that I've made a couple of mistakes with Cassie, so try not to get on my high horse as she isn't the perfect example. But she does get complimented sometimes, which is nice!

 

[kateincornwall]

If asked , I would say what I believe which is that by using kind sympathetic methods , I get a dog who wants to do my bidding , rather than a dog who does my bidding because he is afraid not to xx

 

[Boogie]

If asked I give them Guide Dogs rationale -

“The guide dog relationship is all about trust – the trust between the dog and a person with sight loss, but also the trust our dogs have in the people who care for and train them at every stage in their lives.

In order to build that trust we use Positive Reinforcement Training (PRT) in all our dog's training and management to teach our dogs everything they need to learn to be successful and happy in their lives.”

 

[Jen]

I don’t even attempt it because they’d take one look at Stanners and go - it doesn’t work then

If they knew what we started out with they would see it does work, but Stanley is just a law unto himself

 

[Beanwood]

So I'm interested in how everyone HERE explains it to the uninitiated?

I answer it with a question...

The thing is, shouting at your dog works right?

So how do you get your dog to do something you want it to do instead?

The biggest thing for me about using positive reinforcement in the simplest form, is that the dog learns to do something new and fun! I am always happy to explain or demonstrate something easy peasy if they are genuinely interested

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I don’t even attempt it because they’d take one look at Stanners and go - it doesn’t work then

If they knew what we started out with they would see it does work, but Stanley is just a law unto himself

You're on fire, Jen!


On a serious note, Stanley fits perfectly into your family, right? Then I'd say it DOES work.

 

[M.F.]

@Emily_Babbelhund You say you trained Brogan differently but he was the perfect service dog for you. So, with your experience now with Carbon, how do you compare the two training approaches?

As for preaching, I just ask, “Where are your treats?” when someone is calling their dog and it doesn’t come. I also mention the stats I read about how Guide Dogs went from 50% to 85% success rate when they changed to Rx. Interestingly, I notice more and more people using Rx with their puppies in my area when I’m out walking, so someone or some school is having a very nice effect.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

So, with your experience now with Carbon, how do you compare the two training approaches?

Very different dogs, very different times. Also Brogan's training was strictly focused on teaching him the tasks to pass his ADI exam. Our trainer now trains for really everything out there that Carbon will need to be successful. Kind of the difference between completing an apprenticeship (Carbon) and studying for a theoretical test (Brogan). A lot of what Carbon is learning now, Brogan and I learned simply by being on the job.

Just to be clear, I was not "punishment-based" with Brogan. I think that's what confuses most people who knew me then when I try to explain about being positive now. "Weren't you positive THEN?" is a logical question.

But as I have learned (and learned and learned...) you can think you are positive but not be "R+". I've had...and still have...a steep learning curve.

I think that for Carbon's temperament and intelligence, R+ is perfect. It's slower for me...and faster for him. It also makes me think more creatively which is important as Carbon is always thinking up different ways to do things. Or forgetting/changing the stuff he already knows.

Brogan was much slower to learn, but once he learned he performed consistently and FOREVER. He never forgot a task. The way we trained worked for us at the time, but of course I have to wonder how it would have gone if he'd gone through the same program as Carbon.

 

[M.F.]

R+... Rx... oops! Wrong mathematical operator!