Treat and train

[Jessica]

Can those of you who have a treat and train tell me a bit more about how you use them? I have coveted one for a while but without a very clear plan of how I would use it. I'd like to have several games/ideas clearly in mind before buying one.

I saw @snowbunny recent thread with weave poles, and I've been doing some agility classes with Brodie so that is one potential use. Any other suggestions? I'd also be interested to get advice on using it with multiple dogs as Jess gets very jealous when Brodie has my attention so I need to consider that. (I guess that could be one potential use - Jess gets rewarded by the treat and train while Brodie is being trained - but I'd like to think of more 'active' applications too)

 

[snowbunny]

It is totally brilliant for cooperative care stuff. It makes it really easy to have the dog on the table while you fiddle with the rear end but keep them facing forward.
It’s also great for send-always, directional work, as a distraction.... so many uses.
As far as the multi dog situation is concerned, I avoid it by teaching my lot that the reinforcement is only available to the one currently working. The others may get separate reinforcement especially in the early days, but they are taught to wait their turn and then having they turn is the reinforcement for waiting.

 

[Jessica]

Thank you! The care suggestion is a good one, Brodie is a bit inconsistent about when/who he will allow to touch him.

Come to think of it, mine are good at waiting their turn, they just have very different levels of interest & enjoyment from training. Brodie loves tennis balls to the point of obsession, but if I call Jess's name he knows the next throw is for her and won't run for it. They wait for their own food bowl to be filled rather than diving to eat whichever bowl has been filled first etc. But Jess doesn't seem to enjoy training very much and often doesn't really want to participate. I'm not sure if this is just her personality or because I made mistakes - all the training we did when she was younger was entirely treat-based and positive reinforcement, but I was so anxious about wanting her to do well/to be a good trainer that she probably picked up on it. If I leave Jess in the house while I take Brodie into the garden, she will bark at us (whether she can see us or not). If I take her outside and leave her to mooch around while he is getting attention she doesn't bark but does look quite dejected (definitely possible that I am projecting here!) so I thought some reinforcement for her while mooching might make her happy, while he gets rewarded during the training.

There is one issue that I am trying to solve with Brodie that I thought maybe a Treat and Train might help with, though I'm not sure how! When I open the door into the garden he flies out at top speed and does a high speed circuit of the garden, through the back flower bed. This has not been good for the plants, though to reduce the number of plant casualties I have now just left a clear path through that border that he can barrel through. Jess also used to do this and has now stopped - I started making them sit and wait at the open door, while I scattered treats on the grass. Then I would call them to come, with the idea that they would stop to sniff out the treats and thereby get distracted from zooming round the flower beds. This has worked very effectively with Jess and not at all with Brodie, who when released just barrels out the door with even more intensity and does his zoomie before coming to see if Jess has left him any treats. I was wondering if somehow I could incorporate a treat and train into this to try and interrupt Brodie's zoomie circuit and get him to go to a corner of the garden that is not a flower bed. (It's not a big garden, the grass and flower bed area is probably about 30ft square). But I can't really envisage how to do it!

(sorry, very long message!)

 

[snowbunny]

I'd be more inclined to keep the food at or near the door rather than on the lawn; by putting the food out there, you run the risk of increasing the desire to go out. With my lot, I always reinforce them inside the door/gate and then immediately outside. This means I can open the door, they wait inside for their treat, then we go through the door and they reorient to me for another treat before being released to run around.

So I'd be looking for a way to build a very strong reinforcement history for staying inside (without a sit) as the door is opened as my first port of call, and then adding the reorient to you after going through.

 

[Jessica]

hmm, reinforcing being inside as an alternative to running outside is an interesting thought. I know the key will be to break the pattern of running outside & zooming but everything I try seems to at best delay that rather than replace it with a different behaviour. (i.e. if my husband opens the garden door while I am inside eating something, Brodie is quite likely to stay with me and the food, but as soon as that is finished or I stand up he will do his mad dash then. Similarly, sit & wait just makes him more pent up when released, even if he is being released to sniff out treats.)

I will also try putting the treats closer to the door, which might make a difference in combination with some other changes. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Joy]

Could you take him on lead to the bit of garden that is ok for Zoomies and then let him off?

 

[Jessica]

Could you take him on lead to the bit of garden that is ok for Zoomies and then let him off?

I think if I took him out on lead it would delay but increase his intensity once he was let off. The garden circuit is definitely a rehearsed behaviour and he actually only does it for a couple of zooms, so I am sure if I can find the right 'key' it can be stopped & changed. I just can't find the right approach. He would be fine to do circuits of the grass if he didn't go into the flower bed at the back but he always wants to do this. I bought low wooden fencing to try and block his access but he just jumped over it. Then I tried putting large pots to block off his path but he just went round them and full-barrel through the plants. That is when I gave up and just left him with a clear route for him to circuit through the flower bed!

In a way, now he has his route through the flowers I would be ok with him just using that, but I also worry about how frantic he is when he does this. I think it started partly from him copying Jess but also watching pigeons through the window while he is in the living room and then running out to see where they have been. It's not just an occasional joyful happy zoom but a very fast, very powerful compulsive dash round the garden every time he goes out. He managed to rip a claw out a while ago when I threw a ball for him in the garden - it must have got caught between two large stones and ripped right out to the quick, ouch. I worry that could happen again or that he will run into the greenhouse and hurt himself (it is safety glass but still don't want him to hit it at high speed).

I did wonder about putting some agility equipment in the garden so that I could take him out and then immediately do training games that capture his attention. Scent games could also possibly work, he loves searching things out. Taking him out on a lead and immediately giving him a fun (but not too exciting) game might work. I do appreciate the suggestions! I feel like I have tried lots of things but it's helpful to think about what I've not done.

 

[Natalie]

I've always loved the look of a treat and train, but at the price they are have stayed away. However the co-operative care idea is excellent. I'm a really rubbish treat timer, I fumble about so much and often drop them.
I'm still in the 'early days' of re-enforcing one (a lot) for being quiet while I train with the other so that might be a possibility for me. Are you looking at any one in particular @Jessica ?

 

[Jessica]

I was looking at the Petsafe one, I agree they are expensive so need to be sure that it is more than a passing whim. I was discussing this with a trainer who said I would need to get one for each dog! (not going to happen)

I did lots and lots of reinforcing my two on settle mats when Brodie was small, but a lot of that was with the intention of helping Jess to accept him by rewarding them for lying near each other. I think it did help them learn to take turns though - I sat on the sofa, got them to lie on their mats, called Jess's name and threw her a treat, then the same for Brodie. It was very lazy training but did have some useful results!

 

[Natalie]

I was looking at the Petsafe one, I agree they are expensive so need to be sure that it is more than a passing whim. I was discussing this with a trainer who said I would need to get one for each dog! (not going to happen)

I did lots and lots of reinforcing my two on settle mats when Brodie was small, but a lot of that was with the intention of helping Jess to accept him by rewarding them for lying near each other. I think it did help them learn to take turns though - I sat on the sofa, got them to lie on their mats, called Jess's name and threw her a treat, then the same for Brodie. It was very lazy training but did have some useful results!

I was doing fairly well outside on the raised beds, but haven't done much inside since the weather turned. My older one Monty, is the most difficult to train, as he's never had to wait his turn before! I also find it worse the further away I am, so that was why I was wondering about the treat and train for now. But on reflection, I could rope OH in for free

 

[Foxy Lady]

I have one - its a fairly old model now - but I have a lot of trouble with it jamming (some kibbles are better than others) - and it makes a horrible noise when it does - so Jaffa pictured left hated it (which kindof defeats the object)

 

[Jessica]

I have one - its a fairly old model now - but I have a lot of trouble with it jamming (some kibbles are better than others) - and it makes a horrible noise when it does - so Jaffa pictured left hated it (which kindof defeats the object)

Oh, interesting - very noisy would definitely be a problem for Jess. And I did wonder whether they could be used with anything other than kibble (which is of no interest at all to Jess and only marginal interest to Brodie). Can it be filled with any other treats (chopped up sausage? home made biscuit treats?) or does it have to be kibble for the mechanism to work?

 

[Foxy Lady]

It has a beep sound which acts like a clicker - which you can turn off. But basically you put kibble in the middle and press your button - a little disc with a hole whirls round and allows some kibble to drop out thru the hole. I think it came with 2 discs with different sized holes - so you can change the size. I think sausage would stick and home made treats would have to be fairly hard and uniform. There are websites which discuss what is the best kibble to try - but as I say I got a bit frustrated with the kibble getting jammed. When the kibble jammed, the machine then gives a horrible constant bleepy noise - which was what Jaffa really didn't like. The PetTutor is supposed to be better, but is really expensive and I'm not sure if it is available in this country yet.

 

[snowbunny]

Mine only jams once in a blue moon, so it doesn't really bother me. It isn't a quiet device, though. Kibble seems to have far greater value coming out of the T&T than it would from your hand. The reason seems to be that it is far more reliable than a human could ever be: if it beeps, it delivers in a timely fashion, and in a very predictable manner.
I've tried with pyramid pan treats and various others. It doesn't really do well if they're squishy or at all wet, as they stick. Kibble is definitely the best, but you could always get a different brand of kibble (eg Fish4Dogs) which is novel for them.

I've heard the Pet Tutor is a really good device, but also comes with a much higher price tag! I'll stick to my old T&T. Look out at Black Friday; there may be deals around.