The Pig meets Shot and Game

[Jen]

Might try to guilt trip OH - after all, I'm the one who had the baby and wakes up through the night for her (going to dine out on that one for at least 18 years!)

Did you not do that straight away? I’ve been milking it for weeks.

My current response to everything I don’t feel like doing is “I can’t, I’m pregnant”.

And I’ve already told OH I’ll need 9 months off from baby duties because I’ve carried them and given birth, then it’s his turn

 

[Charlie]

Oh it is tough to give up the things you want to do, to compromise with your OH when you have babies. David travelled a lot when we had our four children, I felt like a one parent family at times then they grow up and leave home with you left wishing you could turn back the clock. Don't wish their lives away ladies it comes all to quickly believe me xx

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Did you not do that straight away? I’ve been milking it for weeks.

My current response to everything I don’t feel like doing is “I can’t, I’m pregnant”.

And I’ve already told OH I’ll need 9 months off from baby duties because I’ve carried them and given birth, then it’s his turn

Unfortunately you are the one with the boobies

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

I successfully guilt-tripped OH to come with me to the next gundog class this was our first session in the more advanced group. It was great because there was only about 6 of us there so not much waiting around and lots of fun.

Our first exercise was for me to send the Pig out hunting whilst a line of retrivers followed behind. Unfortunately as soon as I let her off she went and did a big poo, then as I was picking it up she heard a pheasant and bolted off at a thousand miles an hour into the next field, where she proceeded to flush four pheasants as the retrievers looked on. Oh dear. The instructor called it a ‘technical hitch’ and she came back (eventually), so I guess I should be thankful for that!

Thankfully it improved from that inauspicious start. We did a lot of hunting for dummies, and I was really pleased that despite her having been in ‘pheasant mode’ prior to that, she actually hunted really well, generally turned to her turn whistle and found a good share of hidden dummies. I was also pleased that she picked them up and delivered them to hand with no hesitation despite them not being her dummies and all different shapes and sizes.

Overall I was very pleased with her. I was criticised for overhandling her which I need to work on, and was told just to ‘chill out’ about the running off after pheasants thing. Trouble is, I can be chilled out about it if there are no roads/railway lines/ other dangers nearby but otherwise I can’t help but panic! General conclusion (mine, but instructor agreed..) that dog is fine, handler needs therapy

 

[Stacia]

That sounds great, wish I had been there as well. I agree with instructor I think with time the Pig will not chase and you can relax. We go training to learn, not take a perfectly behaved dog, that comes later

 

[Jacqui-S]

That sounds really good!
This is definitely Indie's thing for sure

 

[Xena Dog Princess]

I understand your reaction to the "just relax" comment, because those people who "just relax" around their dogs are the ones with dogs who've disappeared into the distance to pester other dogs or who are getting themselves into trouble on roads. You've lived it when the evil twin appears and takes her off to hunt muntjac, the instructor hasn't. But it's still a great compliment I think - just means you can relax a bit in "safe" places like gun dog training.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

I think my problem is, I have always learnt that I should try to prevent undesirable behaviours because if you let dogs ‘practice’ them (and they are intrinsically rewarding, like uncontrolled chasing of animals ), they will increase. And although a pointer should hunt and flush pheasants, it shouldn’t be running amok doing that whenever it feels like it, and it should still respond to cues during. So by relaxing and letting her get on with what a hunting dog does, surely I am making the situation worse? I still haven’t quite managed to get a straight answer out of the instructor exactly how I get the Pig to respond to any of her whistle cues when she is hunting phessies or whatnot...and that is my main aim with all this!

 

[Selina27]

So by relaxing and letting her get on with what a hunting dog does, surely I am making the situation worse?

@Lara_Pigletina , this exactly the situation I find myself in with Cassie, more than one person has suggested that, as a working Lab with no papers, Cassie may well have a smidgeon of pointer in her, that's by looking at her. But her hunting behavior does indicate that she could well have pointer genes. For her, it's rabbits and hares that totally set her alight, we don't have many rabbits around here generally but there has been a population explosion recently. She can be right by me and get a whiff and is just gone. 90% of the time all the staying close to me stuff works brilliantly, but then there is this 10%.
I get what you mean, I stand there thinking don't blow your whistle cos she will ignore it, I doubt she even hears it..... so how to prevent/manage this? It's a problem!
The nitty gritty for me is that I wanted to give her an outlet for all this by doing gundog training, but perhaps due to my inexperience I seem to have gone about it the wrong way, probably thinking she had to retrieve before I could do other stuff! That said, the retrieving is coming on now -- provided she has to hunt for the dummy, the thicker the undergrowth the more she enjoys it!

 

[MellowYellow]

Sounds like a great class Lara!

It is extremely difficult to get a hunting dog to listen to the whistle, when they are in their ‘tunnel’.... Happened to us yesterday, miss perfect Poppy would not respond to my whistle, because she was so intent on hunting one particular area...

 

[snowbunny]

Yep, I don’t think you need to have any pointer genes to have a hard hunter ... looking at Shadow when I say this
Once he’s in his hunting bubble, there is no reaching him. It’s a work in progress! Doing things like hunting for food and introducing a stop whistle help, but we’ve not even progressed that to dummies yet, let alone real game. When we’re in the real world, I need to interrupt the predatory sequence before it’s gone too far. That’s all the work I did on getting him to look to me when he saw a rabbit. We’ve not been in that situation now for several months however, so I know if he saw a rabbit now, his instinct would likely supersede his training.

I imagine as far as the Pig in the real world, the answer would probably be similar to the advice for spaniels - no free running. Whenever you’re out, she’s either “working” for you, or she’s on a lead. Or both!
@Heidrun is probably your best bet for advice with this - in case that advice is no longer valid.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

The nitty gritty for me is that I wanted to give her an outlet for all this by doing gundog training, but perhaps due to my inexperience I seem to have gone about it the wrong way, probably thinking she had to retrieve before I could do other stuff!

That has been my experience with gundog training so far, all the beginners classes are really geared up for retrieving first, and all the stuff I have read about teaching to hunt/quarter etc under control recommend seeding a field with dummies/tennis balls and teaching that way. But that assumes that all dogs are retrieve-mad at that stage, whereas the Pig doesn’t give a flying monkey for a dummy if she has heard a pheasant call. Yes she can hunt a field nicely for a dummy when there isn’t game involved. It’s a puzzle that I still haven’t managed to get any actual help on - I have heard conflicting advice, both saying ‘prevent free hunting so it doesn’t become habit’ to ‘you have a hunting dog, you have to let her hunt otherwise you will damage your relationship’, often both said at the same time. I’ve been frustrated about this for about two years!

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

When we’re in the real world, I need to interrupt the predatory sequence before it’s gone too far.

That’s interesting, I have been reading about the predatory sequence recently. I have been practicing with rabbits and generally have control with the pig during staring, stalking and pointing behaviours (she will recall away, respond to stop whistle, turn to me to eat treats etc). But, the chase and fast-running-following-scent I have no control over. Unfortunately, she doesn’t often do the staring/stalking/pointing before the mad-running-hunting so there is no opportunity to interrupt before she gets going.

I imagine as far as the Pig in the real world, the answer would probably be similar to the advice for spaniels - no free running. Whenever you’re out, she’s either “working” for you, or she’s on a lead. Or both!
@Heidrun is probably your best bet for advice with this - in case that advice is no longer valid.

Yes I have been following that advice and have had several long years on the long line, but every so often we will have a mishap, I will not get to the end of the line in time and she will have an amazing free hunting session. But Helen seems to be pushing the ‘let dogs be dogs, you are damaging the relationship not hunting her’. Trouble is, I don’t ‘hunt her’, she ‘hunts herself’ which I think is quite an important difference...

 

[Selina27]

fast-running-following-scent I have no control over.

This is my problem too, there is no warning, just head down body gathered up and off.
If the prey is seen, in Cassie's case it's less of an issue because I can implement all the stop stuff with good effect , but if it's just scent I am helpless

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

This is my problem too, there is no warning, just head down body gathered up and off.
If the prey is seen, in Cassie's case it's less of an issue because I can implement all the stop stuff with good effect , but if it's just scent I am helpless

Ah well that is something! To be able to stop her when she has seen prey is pretty impressive. We aren’t there yet (at least if the prey is moving)...

 

[Beanwood]

Were you at SWMBO's then yesterday @Lara_Pigletina? In that case, I was in the retriever line.

If it was you, then it was tough on the hunters ahead. A lot of game scent, with their intermittent calling very distracting for the dogs. Actually, you can't get more distracting then where we were training. Smack bang in the middle of land managed for that purpose. The pheasant pen isn't that far away. Being right at the start of the season, a lot of the birds are naive, a few months on from now and it will be a struggle to flush any. So pheasants are going up everywhere!

@snowbunny makes a good point, a lot of retrievers are hard hunters, Shadow is one of them. Bramble with her game finding instinct would knock spots of many a retriever, and actually, give a HPR a good run for its money. BUT she hunts dummies purely for the massive reinforcement I give her. Show her a tennis ball? Phhhhht... I have had to work intensively (think matching law) reinforcement for retrieving. I work instead with her beautiful marking, and her desire to please me. She can mark to within a foot, even at 100m. I doubt I will ever have a stylish lab which runs out at a rate of knots, but that's OK I am working with the dog in front of me and being totally guided by her strengths, being careful to nurture her enthusiasm and drive. I love her approach and the fact she is a "thinking" dog.

Trainers like SWMBO see the bigger picture. They see countless dogs like ours. I have got Bramble through a working test, Working Gundog Cert, on professional shoot days. All that with a high prey dog, not interested in dummies, who at a whim would disappear off after scent.

Going back to the Pig. I suspect that the point Helen was making is that, your dog will not respond to that degree of handling...a bit like having a conversation in a nightclub when the decibels have been cranked up. After a while you just nod and smile, not having a clue what they have said! I mean, they could be trying to tell you there is a fire blazing and you need to evacuate. You may as well relax, and wait for the noise (distraction) to subside. When your dog does come back, you are relaxed and can give a bit of fuss and praise. Then start again...

With a hard hunting dog, it's tough. You are always up against massive motivation to hunt. To match that you need consistency and a lot of work on your relationship. Commit to a plan, what do you want to achieve, and stick to it. Every day you allow free hunting...in my book needs two days of training (at least in the early days...) I do now allow a bit of free hunting, but it's on cue, just about! It has taken months to get where we are....but stick with it!

Will add a bit more about how I have gone about this....but need to take dogs out

 

[Stacia]

This is my problem too, there is no warning, just head down body gathered up and off.
If the prey is seen, in Cassie's case it's less of an issue because I can implement all the stop stuff with good effect , but if it's just scent I am helpless

If there were pointer genes in Cassie, she would usually stop and point first! I have had two Labs, my deceased one spent his life hunting, he did like retrieving but hunting was his joy, the present one lives to retrieve. Of course Labs have to hunt because they have to find the shot birds. Can you teach her to quarter, then you can teach a turn whistle and if she is on scent turn your body away and walk in opposite direction.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

You were there yesterday @Beanwood ?? Wait, morning or afternoon? We still go under the ‘Indie’ name when I am new to a class because people will think I am bonkers introducing the pig as the pig

I’d really like to hear how you have got so far with bramble. I use a lot of food reinforcement to build up the pig’s desire to retrieve and that has worked pretty well, but of course nothing wins against prey.

So you are of the ‘no free hunting’ school of thought? That is what I was trying to keep to, but have been confused by SWMBO’s advice...

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

If there were pointer genes in Cassie, she would usually stop and point first! I have had two Labs, my deceased one spent his life hunting, he did like retrieving but hunting was his joy, the present one lives to retrieve. Of course Labs have to hunt because they have to find the shot birds. Can you teach her to quarter, then you can teach a turn whistle and if she is on scent turn your body away and walk in opposite direction.

We have taught a turn whistle, and quartering (after a fashion), which is reliable in no-scent situations - but it doesn’t matter what she is taught, if she is on a scent she is unable to respond to any cues. I can turn my body away, walk in opposite direction, get in car and drive home and there would be no response from the Pig!

 

[Stacia]

Reading the above, it is unusual for a Lab to hunt in front of a line of Labs, usually Spaniels do that. I meant above your post @Selina27 which I have just read.