I’ll second @Joy ’s recommendation, my friend is working through this book at the moment and is loving it
The use of the word "no"
- Thread starter snowbunny
- Start date
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
It's all all our fault. We're the ones that are setting nonsensical "rules" that go against the dogs' natural instincts and expecting them to conform. That's why I believe intentionally using aversives has no place in ethical training. It cannot be right to force these animals into unnatural situations and then punish them for making natural decisions.
I used to find the thought that it was "all my fault" quite unpleasant and not a little crippling, but now I find it helps me to better training. I have put aside much of the guilt that I used to have, which easily led me to passivity, and now I'm becoming a lot more proactive about my training - and trying to make it precise, good training. Every time I make a mistake, it's another learning opportunity. I clearly still have a lot to learn, but I'm feeling really good about the path I'm on at the moment, as the dogs make progress with the behaviours I'm teaching, and are so happy as they are doing so, and I make progress with my understanding and application of the methods.
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK
Amen!
- Location
- East Sussex
I hadn't, but googled and listened to this yesterday evening https://player.fm/series/fenzi-dog-...y-cook-phd-sarah-stremming-and-shade-whiteselI don't know if you've heard about the idea of "R+ 2.0" ( (™) Amy Cook
As I understand it, they're saying that initially R+ simply meant not using any aversives, but that now they are taking it further by not cajoling the dog to do something it doesn't really want to do ( eg by using treats) and by giving the dog opportunities for consent where feasible.
I can see that luring could be undesirable where it's used as a means of persuading a dog to do something it's reluctant to do. However I can't see a problem with using it to move an already engaged and willing dog into an accurate position ( eg for heelwork, or for training a 'down') - showing the dog the position or action you want.
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
No, I'm not saying there's a problem with luring at all - I use it myself for certain things. I've not listened to that podcast yet, so I can't comment on the content, but R+ 2.0 is about moving beyond the simplicity of it just being rewards-based, and moving into far more advanced ideas of training, so things like you mentioned: a lot more cooperation, start button behaviours, opting in, real "it's your choice" as opposed to the game of that name that everyone knows, which really doesn't give the dog a choice at all. But also, avoiding frustration, being as clear as possible, and setting yourselves up for success. Hannah Branigan talks a lot about loopy training in her podcasts - look up the ones with the Carpe Momentum ladies for some really interesting stuff.
So it's not that there's an issue using luring, or that it's not optimum, but there's no doubt in my mind that shaping gives far stronger behaviours - far more precise, and with far better understanding on the dog's part. Not only that, but it's really hard to get rid of the body language artefacts that come along with luring, and most of the time we don't even realise we're doing them. I'm not talking about fading a lure, I'm talking about all the other tiny visual cues we tend to add in without being aware of it - slight dipping of the shoulder, hand position, tilt of the head, flicks of the eyes, slight shifts of weight etc. There's a lot less of that introduced with shaping. But, it does require far more skill on the part of the trainer, too, to set up the scenarios to avoid frustration. That's why it really interests me, because it really makes me think. I still suck at it, don't get me wrong, but I love a challenge!
I think for your average pet dog owner, luring is just fine, and is far, far easier. But, right now, I'm concentrating on making very precise behaviours, breaking down each behaviour into its constituent parts and rebuilding, and that's where shaping really comes into its own. You just cannot get that level of precision with luring. It's too lumpy.
So it's not that there's an issue using luring, or that it's not optimum, but there's no doubt in my mind that shaping gives far stronger behaviours - far more precise, and with far better understanding on the dog's part. Not only that, but it's really hard to get rid of the body language artefacts that come along with luring, and most of the time we don't even realise we're doing them. I'm not talking about fading a lure, I'm talking about all the other tiny visual cues we tend to add in without being aware of it - slight dipping of the shoulder, hand position, tilt of the head, flicks of the eyes, slight shifts of weight etc. There's a lot less of that introduced with shaping. But, it does require far more skill on the part of the trainer, too, to set up the scenarios to avoid frustration. That's why it really interests me, because it really makes me think. I still suck at it, don't get me wrong, but I love a challenge!
I think for your average pet dog owner, luring is just fine, and is far, far easier. But, right now, I'm concentrating on making very precise behaviours, breaking down each behaviour into its constituent parts and rebuilding, and that's where shaping really comes into its own. You just cannot get that level of precision with luring. It's too lumpy.
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
I remember one dog trainer saying that 'dogs who do their own learning, learn more and it sticks' - Clare was/is a clicker trainer.
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
My dog trainer friend was talking about this with me the other day. The example she used was teaching her dog to walk backwards (at heel).
I have done some of this with Ella (it's not 100% yet) and I started with luring. Then, when Ella's bum started swinging out to the side, I trained it next to a wall so that she stayed in straight.
My friend didn't want to use that option on the basis that the wall gave her dog no choice but to keep her bum in straight. Instead she heavily rewarded any straight, backwards movement that her dog offered (I'm not totally sure if there were other techniques that she used as well - I just remember her specifically talking about her dog having the choice)
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I have no issue using guides like a wall to build the “muscle memory”, although right now I’m trying to build the proprioception for a straight backup by clicking specifically on the weaker back foot (the one that takes a smaller step). But using a guide is just setting up the antecedents so that the dog is more likely to be successful. Otherwise, I’m not sure how you would get a high rate of reinforcement, if you’re only rewarding straightness. We’re all “sided”, so it’s to be expected that a dog will bend until they start thinking about their feet a bit more
The thing I was talking about was the idea of “It’s Yer Choice”, which is very popular. It’s about self control, and you teach the dog that the only way to access the thing they want is by first doing what you want. So, really, there’s no choice at all!
Again, it’s a technique I have used, and still find myself falling into at times, but the problem is that it doesn’t give the dog a choice. It’s only when you really allow a dog to opt out, without any negative consequence, that you can say there’s a real choice.
The thing I was talking about was the idea of “It’s Yer Choice”, which is very popular. It’s about self control, and you teach the dog that the only way to access the thing they want is by first doing what you want. So, really, there’s no choice at all!
Again, it’s a technique I have used, and still find myself falling into at times, but the problem is that it doesn’t give the dog a choice. It’s only when you really allow a dog to opt out, without any negative consequence, that you can say there’s a real choice.
- Location
- East Sussex
I agree. I too can't see any problem with using a wall as a guide for teaching back-up. It's surely no different in principle than using a back foot target.
The idea of giving dogs more choice is one I'm pondering. I can see the value of this in husbandry matters (unless it's a procedure immediately essential for the dog's health) but in training, if a dog is off lead then they always have the option of refusing - they can just lie down or wander off (and Molly has done this a number of times in the past). Unless you're going to use aversives you either accept it or you try to encourage them to engage with treats or play. I don't think that doing that takes away their choice - surely you're just changing what the choice is. Presumably they opted out because they thought it was boring, so by showing them that it includes an oppotunity for fun or /and food you are just reframing the choice.
The idea of giving dogs more choice is one I'm pondering. I can see the value of this in husbandry matters (unless it's a procedure immediately essential for the dog's health) but in training, if a dog is off lead then they always have the option of refusing - they can just lie down or wander off (and Molly has done this a number of times in the past). Unless you're going to use aversives you either accept it or you try to encourage them to engage with treats or play. I don't think that doing that takes away their choice - surely you're just changing what the choice is. Presumably they opted out because they thought it was boring, so by showing them that it includes an oppotunity for fun or /and food you are just reframing the choice.
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
The thing is that people use coercion - think of the scared dog who is lured to someone with a treat and they come over because they want it. It’s pretty awful for the dog’s mental state to do that. The same thing can easily happen in training; dogs “opt in” because they want a treat, and will put up with stuff they don’t like in order to get it.
So the idea of start button behaviours is that you specifically ask the dog if they want to start - or continue - the thing you’re working on. They are taught they can say no and that will be respected. The dog isn’t put in a position of having to break his trained behaviours - which could be a massive source of conflict for him - in order to disengage, because you keep asking.
I think it’s a really exciting step forwards in how we communicate with our dogs. They have so little choice in daily life (they don’t choose what or when they eat, when or where they are exercised, often even where they get to sleep), so finding ways of giving them more of a say is really special. For them to be able to say, “Sorry, not feeling it today”, means they have a voice. If they have a start button behaviour for training heeling, say, and they say “no”, you could then ask for the start button behaviour for going for a walk, and see what the response is. So the dog can have a real say in what they want to do.
I see loads of applications for it, and we’re only just scratching the surface.
So the idea of start button behaviours is that you specifically ask the dog if they want to start - or continue - the thing you’re working on. They are taught they can say no and that will be respected. The dog isn’t put in a position of having to break his trained behaviours - which could be a massive source of conflict for him - in order to disengage, because you keep asking.
I think it’s a really exciting step forwards in how we communicate with our dogs. They have so little choice in daily life (they don’t choose what or when they eat, when or where they are exercised, often even where they get to sleep), so finding ways of giving them more of a say is really special. For them to be able to say, “Sorry, not feeling it today”, means they have a voice. If they have a start button behaviour for training heeling, say, and they say “no”, you could then ask for the start button behaviour for going for a walk, and see what the response is. So the dog can have a real say in what they want to do.
I see loads of applications for it, and we’re only just scratching the surface.
- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
This is fascinating!!!
- Location
- Cornwall , UK
It is very interesting . Some days , Nelly just doesn't want to go for a walk , we set off and she is obviously not in the mood at all, maybe her legs are hurting , but I just turn about and take her back to Paul in the car, her choice . I`m sure I could " make " her go by offering treats continually but in my view, this wouldn't be fair , so I don't do it x
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
Very interesting thread, thought provoking.
I think that Cassie does get a lot of choice. With feeding, no she doesn't get to choose what gets put in her bowl (but no complaints so far!) but when she gets it is often lead by her. In the mornings, she goes back to sleep, but once she's restless she gets her breakfast. And when I can see she's got just cause for an early tea, she gets it. After a Forum walk for example she is clearly ravenous and it seems unkind to make her wait, so she will have a small Kong later in the evening at her usual tea time.
Recently a friend was staying, we were going out to lunch, Cassie declined to come with us, staying on her chair instead. It was a damp day, she probably didn't want to get her feet wet again walking to the car. She quite often comes with me on trips out in the car, but very often decides to stay at home. My friend was tickled pink, and thought it marvelous that I didn't make her go because I said so!
I find all this very harmonious, I don't feel I have a demanding dog at all
I think that Cassie does get a lot of choice. With feeding, no she doesn't get to choose what gets put in her bowl (but no complaints so far!) but when she gets it is often lead by her. In the mornings, she goes back to sleep, but once she's restless she gets her breakfast. And when I can see she's got just cause for an early tea, she gets it. After a Forum walk for example she is clearly ravenous and it seems unkind to make her wait, so she will have a small Kong later in the evening at her usual tea time.
Recently a friend was staying, we were going out to lunch, Cassie declined to come with us, staying on her chair instead. It was a damp day, she probably didn't want to get her feet wet again walking to the car. She quite often comes with me on trips out in the car, but very often decides to stay at home. My friend was tickled pink, and thought it marvelous that I didn't make her go because I said so!
I find all this very harmonious, I don't feel I have a demanding dog at all
- Location
- East Sussex
I can envisage lots of scenarios where it wouldn't be in the dogs best interest to encourage them to into the activity with treats - Fiona's example of the scared dog being lured forward, Kate's example of a dog who may be physically uncomfortable, yes I agree absolutely I wouldn't try to cajole them. And yes I'd leave my dog behind if they justdidn't want to come with me (my cocker spaniel hated the rain so we didn't make her go out in it).
However I need to think a bit more about whether it's really not in the dog's interest to encourage them with food or a toy to take part in a training session (such as heelwork, tricks, retrieving etc). I suppose that a dog who declines isn't finding the activity rewarding enough in itself - is it wrong to add an external motivator? Not sure.
As an aside, if Molly had completely free choice we would only train between 6- 7pm! I'm the one who gets compelled at that time of day with nose prods to get me going!
However I need to think a bit more about whether it's really not in the dog's interest to encourage them with food or a toy to take part in a training session (such as heelwork, tricks, retrieving etc). I suppose that a dog who declines isn't finding the activity rewarding enough in itself - is it wrong to add an external motivator? Not sure.
As an aside, if Molly had completely free choice we would only train between 6- 7pm! I'm the one who gets compelled at that time of day with nose prods to get me going!
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Of course it's not wrong to add a motivator - we have to add reinforcement otherwise we couldn't build behaviours. The reinforcer has to be more motivating than the behaviour itself, otherwise it wouldn't work as a reinforcer. And it's not necessarily that the activity isn't rewarding enough, it could be that they just don't feel like it that day, or in that moment. That might be because they are tired, feeling a bit yuk, over- or under-aroused, trigger stacked etc etc etc. "No" doesn't have to be "I don't like this", but just "I don't feel like doing this now". Or even, "I'm not capable of doing this in this moment".
I listened to most of the FDSA podcast while I was cooking earlier, and the examples they give in there are perfect. The two examples Sarah talks about are quite clear, I think. There's the typical "worked up" dog who ALWAYS wants to play their sport, but the start button behaviour can be their way of telling you they're actually not capable right now, because their arousal is sky-high. If you put that dog into the agility ring in that state, they could run the risk of injury, of not being able to listen to your cues etc. Then there's the typical "hidden potential" dog, who is the one who tends to give your typical displacement behaviours. If you try to run a course with that dog when they aren't capable of giving the start button behaviour, you're not going to have success, as your dog will check out. Those are both examples of competition environments, but the same applies to a regular training session. If you ask your dog if s/he is capable of giving you that start button behaviour, then you have to listen to the answer, otherwise you're going to have a sucky session.
I've done a couple of courses with Amy, and she uses the same idea with social play. This is something that is used therapeutically and so is low arousal, lazy play. You ask your dog if they want to play. They can say no. It's more than OK for them to say no. That is SUCH important information in terms of finding out where their head space is. At first, Shadow could only say "yes" when we were on the bed in the mornings, but as we worked on the play behaviour (no food or toys, no high arousal), he was able to start doing it at other times and in other places. Play lasts a few seconds, then I ask again (I open up my hands and see if he comes in to me). If he doesn't come into me, I stop asking, wait for him to work through what it is he needs to do (maybe watching a person go by, or catching a smell), and then ask again. If I get three "no"s, then playtime is over and we put it aside until later.
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
My previous post was only me musing really, this all just got me thinking. I don't really understand what a start button is yet, and I don't do serious competition training so mostly it's not very intense training that I do. But in the last 2 months or so I have been working very hard using clicker heel and magic hands, so that she stays with me when released from her lead. This is because of the problem of poo eating, and dashing off as soon as released. Clearly I don't like this for obvious reasons, but there is also the risk of running in front of a car or giving herself an upset stomach. It has involved a lot sausage, but I'm finding now that she's coming back very often of her own accord, before she's gone very far or indulged in self rewarding. Once we are out of the high risk zone, she's free to do as she wishes.
And I'm going on a Craig Ogilvie session next month, I'd like to have another tool in the box
And I'm going on a Craig Ogilvie session next month, I'd like to have another tool in the box
- Location
- East Sussex
I don't know what a start button is either!
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
- Location
- East Sussex
@Selina27 The magic of google:
'Pick either eye contact or line up at your side as your start button, I have videos and instruction to help with both. The general process is to train a behavior, get it on a physical prompt (rather than a verbal cue, your body posture will suggest to the dog that you’d like to start training, that the start button is “live”), and then once it is consistent begin to deliver work as opposed to reinforcement to the dog.' Quoted from Sarah Stremming.
I see now Fiona was explaining this with the example of Shadow.
I think I do have a 'start button' - when I want to train I hold out my hand to Molly for a nose touch. (Ah, I wonder if that's why she prods me with her nose in the evenings?) However I haven't been allowing her to refuse as if she doesn't respond I usually toss a treat in the air for her to catch and then try again. I'll have to mull it over some more..
'Pick either eye contact or line up at your side as your start button, I have videos and instruction to help with both. The general process is to train a behavior, get it on a physical prompt (rather than a verbal cue, your body posture will suggest to the dog that you’d like to start training, that the start button is “live”), and then once it is consistent begin to deliver work as opposed to reinforcement to the dog.' Quoted from Sarah Stremming.
I see now Fiona was explaining this with the example of Shadow.
I think I do have a 'start button' - when I want to train I hold out my hand to Molly for a nose touch. (Ah, I wonder if that's why she prods me with her nose in the evenings?) However I haven't been allowing her to refuse as if she doesn't respond I usually toss a treat in the air for her to catch and then try again. I'll have to mull it over some more..