Otter's Puppy Log

[Loraseal]

Puppy belly photos.... My achilles heel. So love watching Otter on video.....with her doggie crew!

 

[Beanwood]

Update on the weekend. An odd one really, Saturday morning, our first day at puppy school left me feeling a bit well "meh". Luckily @Emily_Babbelhund was there to help, and level me out a bit.

Trying to unravel my thoughts so bear with me.

The trainer is excellent, I hold her in very high regard, credibly qualified in force-free general dog training and behaviour management. I have taken Bramble and Benson there. No problem. So I might be being a little sensitive here. Otter is a careful pup, she is not nervous, however, does not like being approached "front on" by people. She has I think, the propensity to become a bit nervous of people most certainly. Right now though, she just isn't a full on typical "love everyone" type of labrador. She is absolutely happy to sit and watch the world go by in a coffee shop on a walk. Right now I am totally fine with that.

Some feedback from the class was that Otter is "pessimistic". Did she have some gut problem? it was noted I was feeding cooked chicken. I was advised there was a strong correlation between behaviour and diet..what were her stools like? Had she ever had a bout of diarrhoea? Maybe one I didn't know about in her kennel? Did I know what the breeder fed, and again chicken was mentioned....sigh..... (she wasn't reared in a kennel) Then I really need to socialise her more with people and not just on the farm...Ehh??? I left the class feeling a bit odd and actually and rather insecure. Was I really on the right track with Otter, have I missed anything glaringly obvious?

We all had our separate bays, a really good idea. Only one of the exercises was for the other puppy owners to approach our puppies, and talk gently to them. That I didn't like. It meant they approached the puppies front on. When I asked them to throw treats from a distance they ended practically touching Otter by placing the treats by hand much too close. That exercise made me squirm. Much better to walk PAST the bay, throw a treat then walk away as an alternative/precursor to the more direct approach. Apart from that, all fine and dandy. I have a quick vid that I will upload later.

Roll on to today. The plan for the last few days was to focus more on lead walking in preparation for more "out and about" walks now she was a bit older. The last week or two the lead has been clipped onto her harness, but mostly she has been carried or walked just a few short feet to get to the vet/store/cafe. This afternoon though was her first BIG walk. I took her with Bramble to a beautiful local nature reserve. The advantage here was they cut the bottom field so short it is almost a lawn. Perfect for play and easy for pups to find treats on the ground. She really enjoyed her excursion, loving all the new scents and sounds.

We did have one tiny hiccup. On the other side of the field a young husky, lab and golden retriever were playing with their owners. I glanced up at one point hearing panicked shouting and "GET BACK HERE YOU SOB@@@!!! The young retriever had launched himself full pelt at us, hotly pursued by his mate the husky. Now even from a distance, I could see the loose body language and a huge grin on the retriever. As soon as he got close I gave him a mouthful of kibble and lots of praise. "Well helloooo you big doofus, aren't you a handsome boy!" His focus of course, was ALL on me! OK not great for his recall, but that ain't my problem.

Now I did mention Bramble? With her beautiful but quite inscrutable expression...from a distance. I almost felt sorry the husky who unfortunately had made a beeline for her. Now the thing is, that elegant lipcurl wasn't really evident until he got REAL close. Then it was....."SHEEEEETICANTSTOPSHEISGOINGTOKILLMEHELP!!!!! One thing huskies can't do very well is backpedalling. I helped out by stepping in front of him so he sort of gratefully slid into me. No harm was done, he got a friendly hello from me a a few treats before he gratefully with his doofus mate headed back to his hooomans. Otter was quite happy, and interested, said hello to them and fine to mooch along for a bit. She met a couple of cyclists, watched hoomans for a bit before heading home.

 

[Beanwood]

Video from her first puppy class on Saturday

 

[Stacia]

Dear little soul, she does look a little bewildered though, trying to take it all in.

 

[Jacqui-S]

All sounded a bit critical. And off-putting.
Otter however is delectable.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I'm sad to hear this is bothering you.

I thought Otter did very well in her own careful contemplative way. As I was busy being one of the puppy socialisers with the other puppies, I didn't see what happened with you both during that exercise in class. It sounds like it was tougher for her than I realised at the time.

Now that she's had her jabs, you are getting her out there in the world and she's certainly not shy in exploring new places. She'll get there with new people, too. The trainer may be excellent but she doesn't know your special circumstances or Otter's unique breeding. She's just giving you generic advice at this point. I'm guessing as she gets to know Otter more, her tips (hopefully) won't be so 'out there'.

I still say you need to sit in front of Waitrose with her and let all the passers by tell you how gorgeous your puppy is. One of the privileges of having a new puppy to offset the 5am mornings!

 

[HAH]

our first day at puppy school left me feeling a bit well "meh"

I know that feeling. It’s the little voice going ‘what went on there?’

The trainer is excellent, I hold her in very high regard

I think sometimes this is quite unhelpful in a strange ‘cognitive dissonance’ way; I only say this as I sympathize entirely. Our trainer is very good and expert, and I really like her - I’ve seen her read dogs and owners accurately time and again, and she always has well thought through and constructive ideas. But a couple of times now I’ve seen her get Kipper wrong - saying “he’s seeming a bit stubborn now” when actually he was unsure, and this makes me doubt myself before I doubt her, because “she doesn’t get things wrong” which is - on reflection - the wrong way round.

I might be being a little sensitive here

Maybe, but the more I get into this lark the more I think if something makes me uncomfortable it’s either something awry about the situation or how I’m approaching the situation. More often than not it’s the situation itself.

I left the class feeling a bit odd and actually and rather insecure

I am sorry you felt like this, it’s a brutal feeling because we go in with such good faith, particularly when you’ve found the right trainer for you and you’ve had only good experiences in the past. It’s almost a double blow when you come away feeling full of doubt and not positive about the experience as in previous sessions. There’s that feeling of ‘was it me? It must be me because they’re expert/I like them/it’s been so good every other time’ and then as you say you wonder if there’s something you’ve missed, are you letting your dog down, etc etc.
the conclusion I’ve come to - and it might be a large dollop of self-preservation and maintaining my ego - is that even the best trainers cannot be right all the time. And like politicians and teachers and actors who people look up to and seek their advice, sometimes that advice comes freely and perhaps without the thorough consideration it might need. So in Otter’s short life, you’ve spend more time with her than anyone and you’re her greatest advocate. So trust that you know her, you’re doing a splendid job and over time hopefully the trainer will know her better too.
(Emily says it far better and more pithily in her post )
I love the video, she’s such a bright little spark and I particularly adore her focus on you

 

[Peartree]

Otter looks absolutely lovely and a great thinker. In the short clip you posted she does look a little overwhelmed as if she doesn’t know what and where to look, but it’s impossible to tell from such little snippet. She certainly is thinking and taking it all in, far better to have such cognition and bodes well for great clicker training.

I totally understand what you mean about leaving a trainer that you like and respect and feeling a bit meh, it’s happened to me on more than one occasion. When it’s been a traditional trainer who has made remarks I can ignore them and let them wash over me, as I don’t want to train their way. But when it’s someone that you think is good, then it’s much more difficult to shrug them off.

Remember no one knows your puppy like you, whatever an expert they may be. We’ve all been there and there is a feeling of ‘being let down’ which doesn’t happen when you don’t rate the trainer. One occasion that stands out for me is when I took Bingley for two day long training and he refused to retrieve almost anything the entire time. I was told by a trainer that I really rate, that the reason was that I had a defeatist attitude. Of course, this was total nonsense as he was completely overwhelmed by being away from home on his own among strange dogs, and nothing to do with my attitude. It has had a lasting effect of making me sceptical about sweeping statements even from the most well respected trainers.

 

[Selina27]

Some feedback from the class was that Otter is "pessimistic"

This sounds to me a very odd thing to say. I'd be put out to hear such a statement about my dog/puppy. (Not really likely to happen with Cassie though is it? ).
I like the sound of the individual bays, a good idea for puppies I think.

I can understand that you are feeling a bit "meh", I have many thoughts going round in my head about it all but in truth @Emily_Babbelhund , @HAH and @Peartree between them have said it all very well.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

This sounds to me a very odd thing to say. I'd be put out to hear such a statement about my dog/puppy.

I agree. I didn't really understand what she meant by 'pessimistic' and still don't. At the time I just kind of ignored it as I thought it must be some kind of US vs. UK English thing that didn't translate in my brain.

Also as I told Kate at the time, the whole thing may be down to stereotypes of 'what is a Labrador' and especially 'what is a chocolate Labrador'. Otter's behaviour seems normal to me because it is very typical of a Rottweiler: carefully suss out your environment and then react. I'm used to that, but maybe the trainer doesn't see a lot of 'have a think and then act' puppies. Not to misunderstand, there's also nothing wrong with full-throttle Labrador puppy enthusiasm, but it's not the only 'normal'.

 

[Boogie]

I would say she’s thoughtful, cautious and very clever. I saw this a lot in children throughout my career. Very often (not always) the cleverest ones gave things some thought before they got stuck in.

Tatze is similar - and why agility was absolutely not for her! She’d do everything but in a cautious, thoughtful manner - no rushing into things.
.

 

[FayRose]

Hmmm, I think @Emily_Babbelhund has a point there about the chocolate lab perception. I had NO idea how much negative stuff there is in some dog circles about chocolates before we got Molly.

Reading your log before the puppy class bit @Beanwood I would have said you were doing precisely the right things with Otter. You know your pup. This class must be one of her first times out in such company so how she's expected to be instantly comfortable is beyond me. Anyway, aren't they all different?
I wouldn't let 'pessimistic' bother you, Otter looks to be a beautiful happy little pup, getting on perfectly well.

 

[HAH]

maybe the trainer doesn't see a lot of 'have a think and then act' puppies.

This is a really useful observation Emily, and resonates strongly with my experience too.

 

[Beanwood]

OK... you guys are amazing! I honestly don't know where to start in replying to you, so reassuring and supportive. I guess we can't expect people, no matter how good, experienced, qualified to get it right every day. She did mention that she was tired that morning.

I know that feeling. It’s the little voice going ‘what went on there?’

I think sometimes this is quite unhelpful in a strange ‘cognitive dissonance’ way; I only say this as I sympathize entirely. Our trainer is very good and expert, and I really like her - I’ve seen her read dogs and owners accurately time and again, and she always has well thought through and constructive ideas. But a couple of times now I’ve seen her get Kipper wrong - saying “he’s seeming a bit stubborn now” when actually he was unsure, and this makes me doubt myself before I doubt her, because “she doesn’t get things wrong” which is - on reflection - the wrong way round.

Yes, sometimes even good trainers don't always get it quite right. I guess I am also used to training environments where the dog is deliberately ignored by the trainer, other attendees. In the context of gundog training, it is important that dogs are comfortable and calm around other dogs and humans, and this behaviour is heavily reinforced. So having active humans approaching Otter, and head on, felt a bit wrong.

Otter looks absolutely lovely and a great thinker. In the short clip you posted she does look a little overwhelmed as if she doesn’t know what and where to look, but it’s impossible to tell from such little snippet. She certainly is thinking and taking it all in, far better to have such cognition and bodes well for great clicker training.

Yes, I agree, Otter was a bit overwhelmed. Not hiding or trembling, and also VERY happy to dig around in the snuffle mat for food

can understand that you are feeling a bit "meh", I have many thoughts going round in my head about it all but in truth @Emily_Babbelhund , @HAH and @Peartree between them have said it all very well.

Yep, totally agree!

maybe the trainer doesn't see a lot of 'have a think and then act' puppies. Not to misunderstand, there's also nothing wrong with full-throttle Labrador puppy enthusiasm, but it's not the only 'normal'.

Good point, I did note that most of the attendees were first-time dog owners. I do think individual discussions, even via email to understand exactly where everyone was in their training including the background of the puppies would have helped.

I would say she’s thoughtful, cautious and very clever. I saw this a lot in children throughout my career. Very often (not always) the cleverest ones gave things some thought before they got stuck in.

Absolutely this I would be interested to hear more about how puppies are selected in terms of assessing for sociability. I guess it is important that pups are super comfortable with humans, but do they tend to actively seek out interactions with people other than their humans?

reading your log before the puppy class bit @Beanwood I would have said you were doing precisely the right things with Otter. You know your pup. This class must be one of her first times out in such company so how she's expected to be instantly comfortable is beyond me. Anyway, aren't they all different?

Thank you! I am sure there are areas to improve on...but I couldn't be happier or more in love with this little chocolate bundle, no matter how she turns out!

 

[snowbunny]

A couple of thoughts:

There is some evidence of a link between gut health and mental health. It is still very much an emerging field in humans, and I don't think the research has been extended to dogs yet. I do believe there is merit to it, inasmuch as if we're feeling off, we're going to act a bit off. Makes sense. There appears to be more to it than that at this stage, with the links between IBS and mental health being investigated, but even on the superficial level, you can see how it could be true. But that doesn't mean that all (or even a large proportion) of anxiety is caused by bad gut health. Yes, it's worth investigating, but it's not true to say there is a strong link. I'll dig out some papers later if you're interested - or you can have a poke around Google Scholar yourself - but it sounds like this is something she has heard, taken in good faith, and made it into a bigger deal than it likely is.

Pessimism is a thing in dogs, just as it is in people. Optimism/pessimism is about how you feel an unfamiliar stimulus will affect you. Optimists tend to believe that they will be good, pessimists that they will be bad. Of course, there is a huge range inbetween. And, of course, there is the combination of genetics and experience that will affect where any individual falls on this line for any particular stimulus. The interesting thing, in humans at least, is that people assume that pessimism is a bad thing, but that's not true. There are different "flavours" of pessimism, and many pessimists actually become far more successful than their optimistic counterparts, because they are more likely to plan the things they can control, because they are less sure of the things they cannot.

From what you've said and we've seen of Otter, she does seem rather sensitive compared to the stereotypical Labrador puppy, but that does NOT mean there is something "wrong" with her. It is how she is, as an individual. And because she is an individual, I think it's dangerous to try to make her fit the perceived picture of what that stereotypical Labrador puppy should be. Why should she be exposed to more people, if she finds it worrying? Why is she not simply allowed to be the quiet puppy who doesn't go running up to people (at this stage )? Of course, we should be wary of anthropomorphising, but since it appears that developmental behaviours tend to be similar across the species divide, it's fairly safe to put ourselves in the dog's shoes and extrapolate how we would feel to how they do. If we do that, and we think of the person who is wary of others. If we put that person into a room full of people, does it make them feel better about people? If we create scenarios where unfamiliar people walk up to the person, enter their space and give them all their attention, how does that make the individual feel? I think it's easy to understand the answer is going to be "not great". OK, the person might realise that these others aren't going to cause any physical harm, but their mere presence has caused emotional distress. This doesn't mean that person can't make deep and meaningful relationships with a few select people, and it doesn't mean they can't learn to exist in a society where we have to have a certain amount of interaction with strangers, but shoving strangers in their face - especially while they're young - is likely to be detrimental rather than positive.

 

[MrChew]

Just a small piece of my very inexpert opinion- I think ascribing a particular characteristic to a dog based on a few brief meetings, like "pessimism" or "stubbornness" isn't particularly helpful to anyone.

I'm sure she meant well, but could have phrased it more thoughtfully. "Otter is being quite cautious" or similar. She does sound a bit more cautious than the average Lab puppy. I have often wished that my boofy boy was more circumspect about strangers and strange dogs, but they are who they are.

 

[Charlie]

As much as you like/respect this trainer, I would have thought that she would reserve comment until she has spent a few more lessons with Otter and the rest of her class. What is it about 'one size fits all' trainers, teachers just seem obsessed with this. It's not helpful to anyone. You're doing a lovely job with Otter and she will be the dog she is going to be warts an' all. xx

 

[Cath]

Otter is just a baby and we should not forget this. You know her best and are doing a great job.

 

[Anne123]

Do you know the trainer and does she know you? The remark that she should be out more and not only on the farm suggest she knows where and how you live. She doesn’t know though who you are and where you stand in your upbringing skills....? If she only knew she would have reacted otherwise!
I would say go to the next class and see how it goes. In my own experience they say one week this and the other week something totally different. Been there, done it. The main thing is the learning process for Otter. One way or the other you will get there and she will perform as gold. You can see this in her behavior already.

 

[snowbunny]

I think ascribing a particular characteristic to a dog based on a few brief meetings, like "pessimism" or "stubbornness" isn't particularly helpful to anyone.

This is true - they are just labels. As Hannah Branigan would say, you need to operationalise it! It's all just behaviour. "Pessimism" and "stubbornness" aren't behaviours. What behaviour is the dog displaying, and what is the function of that behaviour? Then it's a case of manipulating the situation in order to get you a behaviour that gives the dog the same outcome, in a way that you find acceptable. If there is no change necessary, it's just daft to try to force it because someone else thinks we should.