Cassie's Gundog training log

[Selina27]

Having come close to giving up because Cassie just didn't seem interested in retrieving dummies I decided I still want to persevere with gundog training, because I want to share the outdoors with her and because she has such a powerful hunting drive that feel frustrated with myself for not harnessing that in a positive way.
So having had it pointed out to me that for some dogs retrieving needs to be proofed, like other things, I have devised a plan, first of all choosing an area to work in that I know she assiociates with some training. That went well and she did some good retrieves there.
And so I have begun to work with her other places, approximately once a week and varying which dummy I use. It's no good throwing the same dummy onto plain grass for her, she will quickly lose interest if I don't vary the object she is to retrieve or if she can see it in plain sight. So this much I have learned about her. Or she will pick it up and cavort about with it.
Yesterday I discovered a new place to practice, and so off we went this morning. There is some really long grass, nettles and plenty of cover and quite banky, not too much wildlife distraction and no other people and dogs! I have partially resolved the steady issue by loosely putting her limited slip lead on and quickly releasing her when the dummy lands, this seems to work well. My throwing remains chaotic and very often not where I intended ! But I was really pleased this morning, the 2 throws that I did both bounced into the thistles, further than she thought. I quite expected her to give up but she didn't, persevering until she found the dummy, both times. I felt a bit helpless as I realise I don't have a cue to help her, but she worked it out for herself.
Then I thought I'd try something different, I have only just started memory retrieves, but she has been doing them. I want to try and use her love of jumping when retrieving, and there are some redundant cross country jumps where we were, so I put a dummy on top of one and sent her for it. I'm not quite sure if I did it right but off she went , she didn't actually jump up for it, put pushed it off and then trotted back with It! I was pleased with her, because there clearly was an interesting smell right by the jump and although she lingered she did do the retrieve! She got to go back to her smell after.
And I have been working hard on sharpening up recall recently, and I did use it this morning to good effect once she had picked up the dummy. She tends to pick up the dummy at the end, anyone got any tips for how I can get her to improve this?

Then we went and had fun on the big bales in the rest of the field !
So here we are, our up to date training log for the new Forum

 

[edzbird]

I was pleased with her, because there clearly was an interesting smell right by the jump and although she lingered she did do the retrieve! She got to go back to her smell after.

This is particularly impressive! It does sound as if you were both having fun,

 

[FayRose]

Sounds good to me. I agree about finding the right place, I have that trouble with Molly, switching from 'play' to training in the same place. Somewhere she gets used to training only seems to work quite well.

You have got further with retrieves than I have so I'm no good for ideas improving things - others will know more. I did however have the running off flinging it about thing with the dummy for quite a long time but a couple of weeks or so ago, she suddenly stopped doing that and now brings it straight back - mostly to hand too.
I've got no idea what changed certainly wasn't anything I did, unless without realising it but am pleased.

Its good to read Cassie's updates, thanks - gives me some ideas of new places to put the dummy too.

 

[Selina27]

Thanks @edzbird, we did enjoy ourselves. I'm keen to build it up in little steps. I love seeing her using her brain.

 

[Stacia]

Cassie obviously likes some difficulty when retrieving and using her nose. I have put dummies up into trees and told Rourke to 'look up". It is great when they enjoy retrieving. lots of fun and interest to be had.

 

[Selina27]

My lovely friend and neighbouring farmer has said that I can go wherever I like on his land with Cassie, which is great as it gives me scope for different walks and more importantly training places.
So off we jaunt yesterday afternoon me thinking we can have a little bimble before I go out for the evening. But no, of course not, this is Cassie, bumbling just does not happen. Lovely, I thought no other dogs go across here, a bit of time off from being dog poo alert!
Up gets a hare, and Cassie is gone, like the proverbial long dog. Then she turns and pelts back towards me, great I think and blow my recall whistle as she's coming in. But no, she makes a top speed right turn, up flies a pheasant, which she chases. (She's always stopped and looked back at me before). Damn and double damn. Verbal recall no good, it's funny because when this happens and she's consumed with hunting drive she sort of circles me as if she knows not to go away but she simply can't return to me. So after what felt like for ever of a headless chicken impersonating a racehorse routine, I could see that she was actually looking for me, and I shouted "scatter" and inspite of whatever else her senses were telling over she comes. I did actually release her again before putting her back on lead.
I really want to go on using that field for training, it's got a banky stream in it with plenty of cover, the sort of place she loves to retrieve in.
I've got a plan in my head for how to avoid yesterdays debacle, and repay into the "bank accout" but I'm curious to know how others would go about it!

I really don't want her chasing the hares, I know she's never going to catch one, but I just don't like them being disturbed.

 

[kateincornwall]

Could you maybe put her onto a long training line, one of the thin flat ones ? Then , as you see an animal , gently reel her in as you recall and then a treat ? I do sympathise , Sam ignored squirrels , rabbits, hare, but if there were deer around , heaven help me ! xx

 

[snowbunny]

I would have her on a lead. Not a long line to start off with - a bolting dog can easily rip those from our hands. A normal, good sturdy lead. Work on focus, changing direction, playing little games, a start on recall and stop on lead.
You're competing not with just the wildlife, but also with it being a new environment. If the wildlife is always going to be there, fine - good, in fact, as it gives you somewhere you can train for that stuff. But at least in time the ground itself will becomes familiar. As you practice all your games in that environment, she'll learn that it's business as normal just with all the new smells. Once you start to get some semblance of how she normally is with you built into this new environment, you can think about giving her a bit more freedom and moving to a long line.

I'd play with loads and loads of "zen bowl" type exercises where turning away from the exciting thing means she get to have the exciting thing. In this case, you're probably talking sniffs. Or, if you see a hare etc, you can wait for that look towards you, mark it and then both run towards where the (long gone) hare was with her still on lead. And work on your stop whistle; if you can get it to the point where she sees the hare, you blow your stop and she sits and turns to you, you reward in a massive way (for example, with the on lead "chase" I mentioned above), then eventually, you'll get a "new cue, old cue" situation where the hare becomes the cue to stop and turn towards you.

First job, figure out her strongest motivators and strengthen them as much as you can. A paraphrase from a podcast I caught this morning: if we think of our reinforcers as being "things" ("food", "ball" etc), then they are static. The dog either likes them in that context or doesn't. However, if we think of them as behaviours ("eating the food", "chasing the ball") then they are just like any other behaviour that can be strengthened by proper motivation and proofing. Build those reinforcers and make them work for you in this hugely exciting new environment

 

[Selina27]

Excellent @snowbunny ,

I learnt my lesson with the treat bags, always ask the Forum.

 

[Beanwood]

I feel your pain @Selina27, Bramble is very high drive, and tbh I have had to take a BIG step back, as unless I had her more underthreshold yet keen, I was really going to struggle later on when we start working on game again. I don't think we have nailed it, but I we have made inroads.
I keep her close and very focused on me. Her favourite game is chase the treat, it has to be a really high-value treat. Once she is in the "zone" I can move into a more challenging part of the field where I know the rabbits are. Even so, a lot of the time it is with a longish bioathane lead on a harness. I don't use a long line because she is perfectly capable of dislocating my shoulder!

 

[Stacia]

I have never used a long line as the dog knows it is on it and when it is off! I would teach a good 'stop whistle' so that you can stop her once she goes. Hares are very exciting to dogs, fortunately we don't have them wh,,ere I walk but have come across a couple when on a friend's farm and of course they got chased. Once my GSP chased one in front of the farmer and his friend and I was complimented on what a good hare courser she was, fortunately she didn't catch it, that was many, many moons ago. I am not sure that food and games are enough distraction against the excitement of live game. Rourke has always been steady to pheasants, might come across one, push it up and then come straight back to me for his ball. We walked through the farmyard today with a mother hen and five little chicks, he never gave them a second look, but that is bye the by! You can teach that the very running of a hare, rabbit or pheasant is the cue to sit Get a tennis ball, put two holes in it, put in two pheasant feathers so that they look like wings and lob it across in front of Cassie as if it was a bird flying, as it does, tell her sit (later you can use the whistle), you can then reward the sit with food or whatever reward she finds rewarding. Eventually the very presence of game in front of her will be the cue to sit

 

[snowbunny]

I am not sure that food and games are enough distraction against the excitement of live game.

Absolutely agree, it never will be with a dog with high prey drive. But the reinforcement history on the other hand, using food and games, is perfectly capable of trumping those things. Shadow is very prey driven, and has even caught and killed game, but I managed it with him

 

[Stacia]

Different ways, different time scales - same result probably

 

[Selina27]

Thanks all, your answers are all really helpful

 

[Stacia]

You could also teach 'Leave it'.

 

[Selina27]

if we think of our reinforcers as being "things" ("food", "ball" etc), then they are static. The dog either likes them in that context or doesn't. However, if we think of them as behaviours ("eating the food", "chasing the ball") then they are just like any other behaviour that can be strengthened by proper motivation and proofing. Build those reinforcers and make them work for you in this hugely exciting new environment

I don't quite understand this, where can I find more information on this idea?

We've made a couple of return visits to that field, with lots of orientation work on her lead. Her excitement just going through the gate is visible! But she is being really good at offering the right behavior albeit on lead. I did have to laugh this morning, she was giving me eye contact, sitting etc all with her nostrils going in the opposite direction!! Guess it shows just how hard it is for her to focus in that environment!

 

[snowbunny]

where can I find more information on this idea?

Oh, gosh, now you're asking! I have no idea which podcast it was in!
But basically all I'm saying is that we tend to dismiss reinforcers as "not being strong enough" in certain situations. Well, we do the same with behaviours. My dog can sit on cue at home, but not in the park. We know what to do; we need to proof the cue until it does work in the park. When we gradually build the complexity of a task, we can get the same snappiness and joyful response that we get elsewhere.
We can do exactly the same thing with our reinforcers. By gradually increasing the "complexity" of the situations in which we are offering them, we go through the same process of proofing as we do with the rest of our behaviours. A dog that will eat a piece of cheese in the kitchen but not in the park can be taught to do so, by using the same process of splitting it into incremental steps as you would the sit.

Let me give you a real-world example: the "counter-conditioning party" I am using for Willow's noise phobia. At first, it was a case of finding out what works best in terms of close-up play for her: I want to start with something she already likes. In a very boring environment, I found out that this was a combination of chasing food and catching a bounced ball (chasing doesn't work for this as we're generally working in tight spaces).
Anyway, if I were to take this game and try it out when she was scared by a storm, she would blank me, turn away. So, what we worked on (and are still working on) is building it up incrementally so she can respond to it. Firstly by making it as strong as possible in that mundane setting. Then by adding a level of difficulty: a neutral noise. This is something that won't scare her, and she can predict. I used a plastic cup, tapped on the floor. I followed up with my party. Over time, this cup was dropped from more of a height. Then I started to hide it behind my back so she knew it was there but not when it was going to be dropped. Then we introduced more locations, more noises. All this time, the party was being strengthened. As the complexity increases, I have to go back a few steps; for example, a couple of weeks ago, we had a distant thunderstorm. I had her following my hand with her nose without her moving, and then taking the food. Something very small, but a huge improvement as she would previously have completely shut down. Earlier today we had a loud thunderstorm go over. Because the difficulty is so much more, I can't expect the same behaviour (of eating and playing), but again the history that we've built meant she would gently follow a tube of squeezy cheese with her nose. The value of the reinforcer is being built at the same time as the distraction/trigger is being minimised. As I continue to work on it, she becomes more and more engaged with the party in the easier settings. It's still the same game, still the same food, but the value is so much higher than it once was.

Another example is something I've talked about recently; something we noticed at summer camp is that Shadow will spit the dummy when he's over-excited (by water most noticeably). When he is that aroused, he won't take food, which is a shame because eating is a great way to lower arousal. So that's my homework; get him so that he will eat in that level of arousal. The only way I can do this is by treating it like any other behaviour. Start off easy. So, a really easy way to reproduce it is to have a ball in my hand. If he thinks I might throw, he won't eat. The behaviour (eating) is too difficult for him in that environment. So I need to change what I do; make the distraction less distracting, and/or the food more enticing. A combination of using different objects, holding the ball between my legs, creating a pile of food etc means that I am setting him up so that he will grab the food. At that point, I can throw the ball as the reward. He is being rewarded for the behaviour of eating by chasing the ball. That will strengthen the behaviour of eating. Once he will eat in arousal, I can work on using that food to calm him down!

I hope that makes sense. I will see if I can find the podcast I was listening to; it might have been the latest Ken Ramirez one on Drinking From The Toilet? Podcast #64: Concept Training with Ken Ramirez — Hannah Branigan – Wonderpups Training

 

[Selina27]

Thanks for your detailed response, I didn't intend for you to go to so much trouble.!

I will absorb all this and then reply. I was actually pleased with her this morning as I could see how hard she was trying, we then went across a more familiar field for the rest of our walk, off lead with plenty of voluntary focus on me!

 

[Selina27]

This morning Cassie and I have walked across this field and a new one adjacent to it, with her off lead all the way. With me throwing a treat away from me, and her returning to me for a game of catch the kibble, it's the catching/hunting for it that is making the difference, I've always carried food rewards and often higher value than I had today, and she's been rewarded for voluntary returns from my hand, so it's got to be the game of catching that's making the difference. She absolutely loves it! When I say "lets go" or "go and play" she either doesn't go, or goes a few yards and the returns! When we got to the area that the hare got up in front of her she was visibly more excited, but still returned to me. Of course it's possible that the hare and pheasant weren't in that area today, but even so the fact that she's staying closer to me and not off hunting should lessen the risk of the surprise factor.
I've started to introduce a hunt whistle cue when she's searching for a reward in the grass, like @Jelinga showed me with a dummy. Is it the right way to help her learn that, or will she associate it with eating?
Is there a moderator or administrator who could merge this thread with Cassie's log, please?

 

[Jacqui-S]

merge this thread with Cassie's log

Surprised my self and managed it