Catch-up plan to get Nelson up to standard

[Snowy]

In short, Nelson is not at the standard I had hoped for at 18 months of age. His walking skills are pretty good, and he will sit, stay, etc., without a problem. He can find and retrieve but the return can be flaky, and often he will run off to play with the dummy on his own. I want and need to get Nelson through the basic hunting dog ability test and also get him ready for hunting season 2019. He is nowhere near ready yet on either point.

Luckily I have a hunting buddy who has trained hunting/field trials labs for years, and he's kindly offered to help me along. We'll call him Bob.

Bob's dog collection includes a lab about the same age as Nelson, and to see him working makes me feel slightly envious, and also a little bit of a failure. Still, this is no time to feel despondent. As one Finnish rally driver-turned EU politician once told me, "If you don't achieve something, it's because you didn't want it bad enough". I guess that was his mantra for success and I've tried to follow it for the last 20 years. Anyway, back to dogs.

I planned to keep a record of progress, mainly as reference for later. I might has well do it here too; it might help someone else in the same position.

A public forum, so comments, suggestions or constructive criticism welcome

Class One

Bob watched me run my dog through a few exercises, observations:

1. Nelson has learned to "play on his own" with toys/dummy rather than Nelson and me playing together with the dummy.

2. Nelson's heel work is not bad but not great - he needs to maintain full focus on me, be in the correct position and not sniff the ground ever. Bob took Nelson for a quick round of heel work. He used a combination of verbal high-voice/low-voice and held the lead so it was closer to horizontal than the normal 45 degrees. Nelson got out of line twice, and Bob made a slight turn, which resulted in some sideways pull on the lead. We did discuss this point in the context of training methods. Bob confirmed he is from the school of modern training methods, using praise and treats (but not too many). He said: "You must never yank or even pull backwards on the lead, so as to avoid damaging the throat (which we all know). However a slight horizontal sideways movement unbalances the dog momentarily and turns it the right way". It's difficult to describe it, however the technique didn't bother me. It was certainly 10x less stressful for Nelson than me stopping quickly and standing still if he pulls on the lead whilst walking. I particularly liked the near-horizontal lead position, so that if Nelson did suddenly pull, there was slightly less pressure on his throat. Anyway, within 20 seconds Bob had Nelson heel walking like a pro' I was both surprised and not a little impressed.

3. Nelson's tail is often raised. I was told this is an indicator that the dog thinks he is in charge. A horizontal tail would be perfect.

4. Nelson is a little "wild" compared to most labs his age. But by no means is he a lost cause.


Homework

1. All "playing toys" have been temporarily removed from the floor at home. No more playing alone. Chews remain of course. I am now concentrating on our "threesome": Me, Nelson and the dummy (ies). Once he is sitting with the dummy in his mouth, I stroke the head and neck gently at the same time, which results in the head raising towards me. After some time I take the dummy and allow him a retrieve inside. Once he comes back, I'm in no hurry to take the dummy, we just enjoy the stroking and being together with the dummy. We also play swap-shop, where he gives a dummy and immediately gets another dummy in his mouth. If at any point he doesn't bring the dummy, I get on the floor with another dummy, facing the other way, and play with the dummy myself until he comes to see what's going on. Then we restart the stroking and dummy play together.

2. During walks we now have two walking methods. One is just walking, where he is expected to be closish to me, but can still sniff around a bit. The second is the formal heel, where he is expected to be in line with my left knee and pay proper attention to position. We don't do more than 3 mins at a time of the heel. The walk is broken up with "free sniffing", just as we did before.

3. During all training, I keep an eye on his tail. If it gets too high, I increase the frequency of orders, to remind him who is in charge.


Results

We seem to have made a giant leap forward in the last week. Just need to keep up the momentum.

 

[Boogie]

Sounds like you are both doing great!

I didn’t know that about the tail, ‘tho Tatze’s tail naturally hangs down even when she’s super excited and wagging.

Our lead walking method is called ‘fixed tether’. You hold the lead (loose) then tuck your hand into your belt so that the lead is ‘tethered’ to you. Then you treat whenever the dog is in the right position - lots at first. Spencer (15 weeks old) has never pulled yet!

 

[snowbunny]

Since you asked for comments...

Just because someone says they use only modern methods, it doesn't mean they do, or that they have a full grasp of the science, or even what they are doing when they use a technique that they've been using successfully for a while.

I'm not going to say the lead thing is "bad", that's not for me to say. What I can say without risk of argument (because I'm talking about how things are defined) is that if something you do makes a behaviour less likely to happen in the future, it is punishment. So, if this sideways movement you have added makes Nelson less likely to drift, it is because he finds it punishing. There can be no argument about that, as the definition of punishment is "any change in a human or animal's surroundings that occurs after a given behavior or response which reduces the likelihood of that behavior occurring again in the future". That is, the dog drifts (the given behaviour). A sideways movement is added (the change in surroundings). The likelihood of the drift occurring in the future is reduced.
It's up to you whether that's acceptable or not. As we've discussed elsewhere, I'm progressively moving away from punishment of any form as and where I can, and that includes negative punishment, which includes the stopping and starting method that is often considered benign. My thought process is that it's not right I should be telling the dog what not to do when they don't speak my language; I should be guiding them to what I do want them to do, and that is done by positively reinforcing their correct choices and managing the environment so they are more likely to make those choices. That's what my moral compass is telling me is right, but it's not necessarily the easy option, and I won't say I don't ever drift into other quadrants. I am prepared to fall back to negative punishment where I feel it is appropriate for getting the results I want and always taking into consideration the dog in front of me. An example would be picking up a thrown dummy when a dog runs in, which is negative punishment; the dog runs in (the behaviour), the dummy is removed (the change in surroundings), making the behaviour less likely to reoccur - I was happy to use this technique with Luna on a recent training break because she is very robust and it worked effectively after a single repetition. I would not think it acceptable to use the same method with Willow, as she is too sensitive. The technique you describe is positive punishment (the positive meaning simply that something was added). For me, positive punishment and negative reinforcement are two quadrants that I will do whatever I can to avoid in training scenarios (as will the majority of truly modern trainers), so working out what technique fits into which quadrant is important for me. This doesn't mean I don't still question the use of these methods and whether or not I find them appropriate in any given scenario. I just haven't found a scenario yet where I find them an acceptable method to use with my own dogs as I have always been able to find a less aversive method that works just as well, if not better.

3. Nelson's tail is often raised. I was told this is an indicator that the dog thinks he is in charge. A horizontal tail would be perfect.

Well, I'm sorry, but that's just bonkers. Some dogs have a naturally higher tail set than others because of the way they are put together. In all cases, the way they hold their tail is a sign of their arousal levels and is not, never has been and never will be a sign of them "thinking they're in charge".

Points 1 and 2 of your homework are great! Point 3 - I refer to my "bonkers" comment above

He's a young dog without a huge history of formal training. The stillness and focus you see in highly trained dogs comes from a history of learning their job. He's still in the early stages of this, so it's not surprising that he still finds it arousing at times and doesn't quite understand yet how to focus that arousal. It will come. By all means, use the tail as an indicator of his arousal and bring it back down if necessary, but it is nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with him "being in charge". That is an embarrassingly old-school way of thinking. Until he gets himself a credit card to buy his own food and toys, can take himself on walks without you and works out how to put you on a leash, he's not "in charge". Regaining his focus is great, and so giving him easy behaviours to perform that can lower the arousal to a point where he is optimum is a good lesson. Just try not to think of it in terms outside of what you are actually seeing behaviourally.
I'll go further and say, it's up to you what balance of arousal to control you want. In a sports dog, you're always walking that line. The higher the arousal, the closer they are to breaking. The lower the arousal, the less "zip" you will get from your dog. Some people prefer their dogs to be more one way than the other. It's about learning your dog, how they perform best and what you like to see. I love to see a zippy dog who is itching to be released, but others prefer a dog who will look almost bored until they are sent. The zippy dog is likely far closer to tipping over the line into running in, or not thinking effectively. But that's my choice, and it should be yours as to which you prefer, not anyone else's. Not to mention the thing we must remember time and time again - look at the dog in front of you. Not at the way his tail is up, down, to the side or anything like that. Look at his behaviour. How is he able to perform? If he is loving his job, then he will learn better and perform well. If he is loving it so much he is unable to think, then you need to work out how to bring his arousal back down so he is able to perform. If he is under-aroused or stressed he may start offering displacement behaviours (sniffing, disengaging etc) and not perform at all. In all cases, look at the behaviour to give you the information. The way he is holding his tail may be a part of that picture, for sure, but until you are able to relate that back to actual behaviours you are seeing with the dog that you have, it's completely meaningless, so you shouldn't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I'd also encourage you to update the vocabulary to the modern one; thinking in terms of "cues" instead of "commands" (or orders) is far more progressive. It may sound like semantics, but it's not. Commands/orders imply a threat for non-compliance. Cues put the burden on the teacher to convey the information to the learner. If someone doesn't obey a command/order, they are disobedient. If someone doesn't follow a cue, they have not been properly trained or properly motivated.

Kathy Sdao explains it far better than I can in the free preview of one of her Clicker Expo videos here:

What a Cue Can Do: Developing Cueing Skills

I hope that all makes sense and didn't sound too ranty.

"In charge". Pffft.

 

[MellowYellow]

What snowbunny said...

But I would add - your dog is very young. Don't be in too much of a hurry with him - why does he HAVE to be ready for the 2019 season? You could spend another whole year preparing him and still have a very young dog to take out hunting with you the first time. When I look at Merlin, who is the same age as Nelson, I would say that Merlin is further along than Nelson in his training, but that mentally he is still very much of a 'child', and I am not at all sure that he will be doing any hunting work this winter - I may just take him along to watch, or he may participate, depending on how he reacts (and of course, depending on his health - Merlin has poor hips). That said, I have noticed Merly is maturing all the time, and this will be true of Nelson too.

I think that basically you just have to make yourself much more fun than anything else around, so Nelson doesn't self-reward so much. You'll get there; don't stress too much. You have a lovely dog, who needs a little more time. You have plenty of that. Be thankful for every day you have with your happy healthy dog and don't allow others to peer-pressure you into thinking you have to have managed this, that or the other by any set time. I've done that in the past - and believe me, I set my older dog back by six months by over-pressuring her. Concentate on enjoying Nelson, and helping him to enjoy your time together, and keep training fun at all times. In my experience, everything else follows on from that.

 

[Snowy]

Since you asked for comments...

I did And with good reasons. As with anything, I like to form my opinions and actions with information from multiple sources. No one person gets a monopoly on that, neither you or Bob I really appreciate you taking the time to pen key a comprehensive and interesting reply and I look forward to more after Class Two !

PS I am onboard with the cue-pairing thing and think/use the term "cue" when planning new actions I would like Nelson to learn. However during actual training and hunting, I'm working solely in Finnish, where we use käsky, literally instruction/command. If Nelson doesn't react in the right way to a käsky, the only ill-feeling is towards myself. After all, it's me who wants him to do something that he wouldn't naturally want or need to do. Therefore the full onus is on me to work harder and longer at training.

PPS I am closely monitoring his tail position in different situations, to try and "read" him better. Earlier I have concentrated more on his face/mouth/ears, which tell so much. Hopefully the tail position will give a fuller picture.

 

[Snowy]

why does he HAVE to be ready for the 2019 season?

I said, "I want and need to get Nelson through the basic hunting dog ability test and also get him ready for hunting season 2019."

Maybe poor sentence construction on my part, but the "need" part relates to the basic hunting ability test (it is part of the sales contract I signed when I got him). However I do WANT him to be ready for the 2019 season. Why? I like to have targets to work to. I find it focuses my own efforts and maintains my own motivation levels.

 

[MellowYellow]

I said, "I want and need to get Nelson through the basic hunting dog ability test and also get him ready for hunting season 2019."

Maybe poor sentence construction on my part, but the "need" part relates to the basic hunting ability test (it is part of the sales contract I signed when I got him). However I do WANT him to be ready for the 2019 season. Why? I like to have targets to work to. I find it focuses my own efforts and maintains my own motivation levels.

Ah, I understand better now. Yes, I understand about having targets to work to, that makes sense. I would just say, don't allow your ambition and hopes to override your enjoyment in and with your dog.

 

[Snowy]

I think that basically you just have to make yourself much more fun than anything else around, so Nelson doesn't self-reward so much.

Yup, I've heard this many times and Bob said this too. If given the choice between:

1. Cooked chicken.
2. Cat food.
3. His favourite toy.
4. An owner rolling on the ground making squeeky noises.
5. Smells on the forest floor.

He will nearly always choose number 5.

Class Two

Nelson watched three other dogs in action, retrieving a selection of cold game/pests/dummies. Some water work too.

We then did some basic retrieves. It was noticed that Nelson often changes his grip of the dummy, from centre to the end. This is because he enjoys playing with the flappy end. This seems to be one of the stimuli that triggers the random running.

He is very enthusiastic to retrieve, which is great, but the “holding time before release” needs to be slowly extended to build more patience.

When Nelson hears the work good/hyvä, he opens his mouth and drops the dummy. This is because he’s learnt that those words often mean a treat is about to be pushed in his mouth.

Homework

The flappy dummy ends to be taped up tight.

Introduction of balls to supplement dummies. They don’t flap as much.

Use of his favourite Kong Wubba as a reward for successful retrieves.

Continued play with the threesome. Additionally, the dummy is present for play during those happy times, e.g. when I come home.

Continued work with putting on and removing the lead multiple times. Also using two leads at the same time to check he doesn’t learn to run off as soon as one is removed.

Use different praise when he has the dummy in his mouth and has brought it to me.




PS I should add that when Nelson was younger, he was doing well at his training. He was retrieving multiple sequential dummies, accompanied by blank firing. However at the age of about 8 months, he suddenly changed and started to play with the dummy by himself, sprinting around the forest. We have no idea if there was something that triggered that change in behaviour, or whether it was simply him being a teenager. But it is from this situation that we a working to recover by going right back to the basics.

 

[Stacia]

Running around with the dummy was most probably teenager but on the other hand maybe he was bored with retrieving, it sounds as if your training is quite serious, it also could be a distraction technique on his part, defusing any stress he might have been feeling. I hope you didn't chase him

I do agree with @snowbunny, the tail thing is pfft! My Lab's tail is always raised because that is what his tail is, dogs do not dominate us, we confuse them! I sometimes watch people training their dogs and it is a wonder the dog understands anything (not saying I am perfect at all!!!). I often find that if I am given instructions I feel confused and I speak English, can you imagine how difficult it must be for a dog to understand what we want as they only speak dog!

 

[Snowy]

Running around with the dummy was most probably teenager but on the other hand maybe he was bored with retrieving

We've also speculated on the reasons. I doubt it was boredom though, he loved retrieving then, and still does.

I hope you didn't chase him

Of course not. We strictly followed the instructions, and set off briskly in the opposite direction. Rinse and repeated for 30-60 minutes before calm recovery of the dog. We repeatedly this twice more before stopping outdoor retrieving. The technique might work on some dogs but not ours. We then took steps back and retrieved with a long line. This worked well.

I often find that if I am given instructions I feel confused and I speak English, can you imagine how difficult it must be for a dog to understand what we want as they only speak dog!

Luckily I don't suffer your problem, and can handle spoken instructions really well. It certainly is challenging for dogs to learn new actions. We had lots of fun with "The Training Game" from Gwen Bailey's book.

I do agree with @snowbunny, the tail thing is pfft! My Lab's tail is always raised because that is what his tail is

I also agree with SB on the tail thing. But the reasons are a bit more scientific.

 

[Charlie]

" It was noticed that Nelson often changes his grip of the dummy, from centre to the end. This is because he enjoys playing with the flappy end. This seems to be one of the stimuli that triggers the random running"

Cut the flappy end off or remove it. Sorry no gun dog expert here just heard this on TLF so thought I would pass it on. Hope it works! xx

 

[Snowy]

Nelson is making great progress.

The training focus has been on making it clear that I am the leader and he is the follower.

Now I know it is very trendy to say that dogs are "not looking for world domination" and "are not trying to be the alpha in the pack" and "are not stubborn, just not yet trained properly". I think this is 99% true, but every now and then there is a dog which is more stubborn/assertive/dominating/moody than average, and I think we have it.

How did I come to that conclusion? Well the breeder has labelled our dog "a rebel" when we have group training of the whole litter. And another experienced labradorist said our boy was "particularly wild" and didn't respond to the various training techniques that work for 99% of labs.

Also those who remember my "sulking" thread on the other forum: Our boy has sulked since he was small, whenever he didn't get his own way or was "cue'd" to do something that he didn't want to do. This pouting of the top lip looks ridiculous, and having spoken to many about this, nobody has every seen a dog that shared this trait.

Finally, I've noticed that if he is "cue'd" to do something that he doesn't want to do (marked by the pouting/sulk), once the training session ends, he goes to collect two pieces of vetbed, and will then vigourously hump them. This must be him relaxing, letting of steam, stress-relieving, etc.

We are confident we will get there in the end, but it will take a bit more work than average...

Additional techniques that are working well:

Short leash with lots of figure of eights. Then random turns whilst walking, particularly when turning towards the dog-side. This means I am walking in to his space, forcing him to pay attention to my movements. This has resulted in a huge leap forward in heal walking - the dog seldom wants to walk ahead of my knee-line.

Whilst free in the forest during walks, he has a long 10m line attached, but running free on the ground. This line is plastic and slick, and doesn't get caught on anything. This has resulted in him staying much closer to us, and his stop-whistle sitting is near-perfect.

 

[Stacia]

I would like to write more but a constrained by lack of time unfortunately. I don't believe in leader and follower, it is a partnership. I have been cogitating on @snowbunny's post a short time ago about 'the science of dog training' which I felt was over complicated at the time. However, the wheels have been turning slowing but surely in my brain. We need to understand the concept, and until we can, we are lost in a sea of so many different attitudes to dog training. Once you find the key it will be rapid strides forward.

I had a Lab rather like yours except he never sulked, but he was difficult to handle. I tried all the wrong things and it wasn't until I joined the Labrador forum and began to learn more that I found the key with him. My present Lab rarely gives me a problem, that might be because he is naturally 'obedient' or that I brought him up with the greater knowledge I had acquired.

Good luck with Nelson, that kind of dog usually turns out to be the best dog you will ever have, my difficult Lab certainly was.

 

[MellowYellow]

Glad to hear you are making progress with Nelson. There are lots of ways of training a dog and as long as you remain kind and consistent, and as long as you both have fun doing it, then good luck to you. What works for one dog may not work for another, as we all know.

 

[Snowy]

I don't believe in leader and follower, it is a partnership.

I used to think exactly that, and remember writing about our "good mates" partnership on the other forum.

However the increased success with this particular dog has been achieved by mixing a bit of both.

Glad to hear you are making progress with Nelson. There are lots of ways of training a dog and as long as you remain kind and consistent, and as long as you both have fun doing it, then good luck to you. What works for one dog may not work for another, as we all know.

Thanks K! It certainly feels good to be making progress. Despite the shift in approach, we are still good mates, we have fun and I probably still spoil him more than I should. But what can you do

 

[Stacia]

A partnership with a dog means I can do things he cannot do and he can do things I cannot do and together, each relinquishes to the other at the appropriate time

 

[Oberon]

Turn the spotlight on yourself as well. Video yourself doing a training session. Sometimes we think we’re really consistent and clear, with precise movements and cues....but in fact we are not!

Some of the behaviours you describe, like sniffing a lot and going off and humping things, are possibly because Nelson is worried and a bit confused about what you’re asking, so he’s performing a ‘displacement behaviour’ instead. Those sorts of behaviours are often displayed when animals (or humans) are confused about or torn between options. They can happen when we’re giving unclear or confusing cues or signals, or because what we’re asking is too hard and not a lot of fun and the dog is ambivalent about it. Just something to consider.

I really do recommend that you get some video of yourself though

 

[Snowy]

hump

 

[Snowy]

Thanks very much for your comments, but one question: Are you saying that Nelson is confused about what he was asked to do during the training session, and this manifests in him humping the vetbed after the session has ended?

Some of the behaviours you describe, like sniffing a lot and going off and humping things, are possibly because Nelson is worried and a bit confused about what you’re asking, so he’s performing a ‘displacement behaviour’ instead.

Finally, I've noticed that if he is "cue'd" to do something that he doesn't want to do (marked by the pouting/sulk), once the training session ends, he goes to collect two pieces of vetbed, and will then vigourously hump them.

 

[Boogie]

Spencer uses a displacement behaviour when he’s in a new place and a little uncertain - he scratches his collar. But different dogs have different coping mechanisms.

It’s not a problem I call it ‘having a think’.

But I would always distract away from humping - that’s a habit I wouldn’t want him to get into!




.

 

[Stacia]

I remember going to a lecture many years ago and the lecturer said, when a dog is confused or doesn't understand 'he goes down to the shops'! A displacement activity.