Help! I hate dinnertime. Carbon's dinnertime, that is.

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I feed twice a day, once pretty much as soon as I get up and then a second time in the evening. Carbon has become a total pain in the posterior for both of his meals, but especially dinner. No matter how much exercise he's had, he starts trying to get me to feed him his dinner earlier and earlier and with more and more extreme behaviour.

I'm not much of a stickler for routine, but I generally feed my dogs between 6-9pm. Carbon was fine with this plan in Spain, but since coming to Germany, he has started his "Feed me! Feed me!" routine earlier and earlier, to the point where he'll start around 3:30pm. Even if I wanted to, I can't feed him at 3:30pm because he needs his meds (with food) every 12 hours. I also cook his dinner, so sometimes (like tonight) that means that he needs to wait for his veggies and fish to cook. I do make up things ahead of time when possible, but sometimes it's not, like tonight when I had to make a grocery run first.

I've tried ignoring him, engaging him with games, taking him for an extra walk. NONE of this has worked. In fact, I feel like it's getting worse, which is why I wanted to ask advice here. He's a VERY good boy and generally an easy boy too, but the mealtime anxiety is infuriating. I get paws in my face or trying to whack my computer. In the morning he's started bouncing on my face on other..um...tender bits as soon as he knows I'm awake.

Tonight I'm ashamed to say that I lost it and yelled at him and put him in his crate because honestly otherwise I wanted to chuck him out the window. This is NOT positive training and isn't helpful to either of us.

Any ideas, gurus of the forum?

 

[Charlie]

Oh dear, could you give him a long lasting chew? Charlie sometimes tries it on for dinner, I say "it's not time yet" and walk away, do a job or something away from him and he settles. Sorry that sounds pretty useless but it works for me. Is between 6-9 pm a little late maybe so he gets restless? I see your problem regarding his meds. I feed Hattie & Charlie between say 5 - 6 pm and they get a long lasting chew between 12 - 1 pm so this satisfies them.

Please don't chuck Carbon out the window he's not a cat!! xx

 

[Aitch]

Is he just hungry? He does go on some very long walks from having read your thread about him. I know my lot have to have a small lunch as they work so hard. I think they would all eat me if they didn't get their lunch.

 

[Boogie]

When I looked at your video of asking him to wait when you feed him I did think ‘that’s a long wait’. That could be adding to his frustration. We are taught to ask them to wait 15 seconds maximum when feeding. The long waits are for treats.

How about giving him a stuffed and frozen in his crate Kong while it cooks? It will soon become a routine for him if you do it every meal time, whether the time is needed or not.

 

[Joy]

Could you feed a bit less breakfast and evening meal so that he could have something to eat mid-day or early afternoon?

 

[Selina27]

Cassie can sometimes do this, but to be fair it is quite often when she's had a busier/longer exercise period than she normally does, so I assume she is hungry. This didn't really matter pre spay, but she has started to put on weight having hit the 6 month mark! So I have to turn my mind to it too.
One thing I do find is adding some hot water and a bit of something tasty seems to slow her eating and help her feel more satisfied. But what about trying a mid day snack as @Aitch suggests?

 

[edzbird]

That's what I'd suggest too - save a little bit of breakfast for "afternoon tea" - very civilised

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Please don't chuck Carbon out the window he's not a cat!! xx

Well, to be clear, I live in a semi-basement flat - so chucking him out the window wouldn't actually HARM him as it's only a foot or so to the ground.

Oh dear, could you give him a long lasting chew?

I've tried this and it actually seems to make him more frantic, which I really don't understand. Same with a Kong. Something that would make him very happy any other time of the day, just makes him nuttier if I give it to him while he's waiting on proper dinner.

6-9 pm a little late maybe so he gets restless?

I should have said that I've bowed to doggie pressure and usually feed him between 4-6 now. It's a bit of a cheat on his pills, but not too much as I get up early.

Could you feed a bit less breakfast and evening meal so that he could have something to eat mid-day or early afternoon?

Yes, I could try that to see if it helps.

s he just hungry?

I honestly don't think so. He gets a very good breakfast and dinner, plus lots of healthy training treats and usually a couple Kongs a day. Yesterday when we went on his weekly raw food store run, the lady who runs the store even said, "Oh, Carbon is looking a little chunky, isn't he!".

When I looked at your video of asking him to wait when you feed him I did think ‘that’s a long wait’. That could be adding to his frustration.

Ok, I didn't even think about that. He was doing his dinner anxiety thing before I started doing a recall with his meal, but it has gotten worse lately so there could indeed be a link.

How about giving him a stuffed and frozen in his crate Kong while it cooks?

The Kong itself doesn't help when he's in a mood. I did use the crate today but he's so good in there that I didn't want to use it as a sort of punishment going forward and risk him getting bad associations with it. That's maybe not the right way to think, though.

 

[Boogie]

I think making it a set routine would really help, then he’ll expect to go to his crate with a Kong pre meal times. It’s not a punishment at all if you make it a happy thing - put some treats in there as well maybe?

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Lots of 'afternoon tea' suggestions, so I'll give that a try starting tomorrow! Also I'll shorten his dinner wait/recall time. Though I must say, that's done wonders for his ability to do sit stays and and an enthusiastic recall. The change after making him recall for his dinner is amazing.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I think making it a set routine would really help, then he’ll expect to go to his crate with a Kong pre meal times. It’s not a punishment at all if you make it a happy thing - put some treats in there as well maybe?

OK, will try this as well, thank you. Though it will only work for his later in the day meals. I'm kind of awake already when he bounces on my soft bits in the morning so might as well go straight for breakfast.

 

[Boogie]

Lots of 'afternoon tea' suggestions, so I'll give that a try starting tomorrow! Also I'll shorten his dinner wait/recall time. Though I must say, that's done wonders for his ability to do sit stays and and an enthusiastic recall. The change after making him recall for his dinner is amazing.

Yes - we always make ours wait and use the recall cue - in our case a whistle - just not waiting for long.

 

[Boogie]

OK, will try this as well, thank you. Though it will only work for his later in the day meals. I'm kind of awake already when he bounces on my soft bits in the morning so might as well go straight for breakfast.

I don’t agree.

(Sorry, I’m being argumantative on this thread!)

Whatever happens just before breakfast he’ll keep repeating. I’d do the same routine for all meals. If our pups shout in the morning when they wake up we wait at least half an hour before feeding them, then shout doesn’t = breakfast. The same with jumping on you, if it = breakfast then he’ll do it all the more imho.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I don’t agree.

(Sorry, I’m being argumantative on this thread!)

Whatever happens just before breakfast he’ll keep repeating. I’d do the same routine for all meals. If our pups shout in the morning when they wake up we wait at least half an hour before feeding them, then shout doesn’t = breakfast. The same with jumping on you, if it = breakfast then he’ll do it all the more imho.

Yep, that makes sense. He doesn't bother me as much in the morning because once I'm out of bed he's his normal calm self - doesn't act nutballs like he does at dinner. While I fix breakfast for him - anywhere from instant if he's getting raw bones or 30 minutes or so if I'm cooking - he just hangs out as usual.

But I still get that he needs consistency and the bed tackles are getting worse. He didn't do it AT ALL until several weeks ago, in fact he'd be very sweet in the morning - vs. in the evening when he absolutely does not want to cuddle or be on the bed with me. That's new since Paul was adopted - he used to be quite the cuddler.

So frankly I guess I put up with the morning tackle longer than I should have done simply because I wanted to encourage him to have a cuddle - even a violent one.

Alright, new plan - I use part of his non-bone meals, stick them in his Kongs and freeze them. Then he can have those while waiting for the real meal to come and it won't up his actual food intake. I'll also sort out what I can do for his 'tea'. I'm already feeding him chicken necks, so maybe tea can just be half his neck ration.

Thanks everybody...let's see what happens!

 

[Oberon]

You have to get him to perform a different (acceptable) behaviour before he gets fed. Being quiet and lying down would be good. You can cue it, then when you get it, feed him. If he’s not quiet and lying down, even for a second at first, he gets no food. Gradually extend the time you expect him to be quiet and wait. This is going to take time, patience and determination on your part. On no account feed him if you are not getting the quiet behaviour.

At the moment you’re actively training him to start his song and dance routine earlier and earlier.

Just imagine I was trying to train a dog to whine and carry on and pester me for as long as period as possible. What I’d do is wait for a moment’s whining and pestering, then I’d feed him. Next time I’d wait for the whining to start then let it go on a bit longer before feeding. Pretty soon my dog will work out that whining and pestering produces food. With any luck he’ll actually begin to offer this behaviour further and further ahead of time which will help me to build duration. Then I can start proofing the behaviour by adding distractions and also I can include other behaviour in a behaviour chain (walks, games etc). To my dog it will seem that he has to offer the behaviour for longer and longer and longer, persisting through distractions, in order to get the food. He has learned that he has to offer more and more and more whining and pestering, from an earlier and earlier and earlier point in the day.

He’s offering more and more of Behavior X and you’re rewarding it. If it was a behaviour you actually wanted, it’d be marvellous that he’s so willingly offering you more and more of this behaviour each day, allowing you to capture and reinforce it. So, choose a behaviour you do like and make him to that instead. Show him that that new behaviour is now the key to food. While he’s performing the old behaviour make sure you don’t reward it in any way at all. No looks, no interaction, and definitely NO FOOD!!!

 

[Jacqui-S]

Could the "Relaxation Protocol" be of use here?