I'm a nail trimming failure

[Natalie]

I'm ashamed to admit this, but I don't know what to do about Monty's nails.

They are very slow growing, and every time he's had a GA, I've asked them to trim his nails. Fortunately, he hasn't been under in three years now. his fear started back from when I took him to a groomers when he was about two, and she cut the quick on three of his nails causing him to cry out each time.

I've tried a grinder, tiny human clippers, and a heavy duty file. They all completely upset him, and is the only time he's ever properly growled at me. It doesn't help I am so afraid of hurting him - even though I never have, so I'm anxious too. . I occasionally manage a clip of his dew claws when he's snoozing, but I think this is mean and underhand. Now some of the nails are wearing at an angle, and I'm worried that they are starting to affect him walking.

Is there time to do a reset on this, - I must clearly be moving too fast with everything I do - or should I ask for them to be cut under a GA? He probably needs a tooth out anyway, which cracked earlier in the year - so they could do this as well.

I feel such a failure with this. I'm trying to be different with Bear - I've trimmed them on five occasions now, just a couple at a time. (He doesn't like the grinder either, he's not scared but get very angry and barky at it)

 

[HAH]

You’re not a failure @Natalie - it’s not easy at all, and I’m observing that some dogs just seem to be naturally cool with foot handling, and some dogs aren’t keen (whether that’s down a bad experience or something else). Kipper’s in the latter camp, and we’ve now been working on improving his comfort - and mine - around doing nails for over a year. And here’s my shame; we’ve not yet got to the stage of trimming front toes without my OH distracting him, which like you say feels underhand.

there’ll be plenty here with good advice and tons of experience, but for us we’re working through Deb Jones’ cooperative care book and it’s very good. The reason I’m so slow is purely inconsistency - sometimes we’ll go a week or so without nail practice and we need to take a few steps back to a more comfortable place. The fundamentals are excellent, and Kipper now loves his ‘station’ and will voluntarily give me his feet; but it’s the next stages I need to build up. If you’re interested we could have a separate thread to keep motivation up

 

[Foxy Lady]

I'm ashamed to admit this, but I don't know what to do about Monty's nails.

They are very slow growing, and every time he's had a GA, I've asked them to trim his nails. Fortunately, he hasn't been under in three years now. his fear started back from when I took him to a groomers when he was about two, and she cut the quick on three of his nails causing him to cry out each time.

I've tried a grinder, tiny human clippers, and a heavy duty file. They all completely upset him, and is the only time he's ever properly growled at me. It doesn't help I am so afraid of hurting him - even though I never have, so I'm anxious too. . I occasionally manage a clip of his dew claws when he's snoozing, but I think this is mean and underhand. Now some of the nails are wearing at an angle, and I'm worried that they are starting to affect him walking.

Is there time to do a reset on this, - I must clearly be moving too fast with everything I do - or should I ask for them to be cut under a GA? He probably needs a tooth out anyway, which cracked earlier in the year - so they could do this as well.

I feel such a failure with this. I'm trying to be different with Bear - I've trimmed them on five occasions now, just a couple at a time. (He doesn't like the grinder either, he's not scared but get very angry and barky at it)

what about trying a scratch pad - I was thinking about trying this for Cola (all my dogs get their nails done differently - Foxy grinder (tolerates rather than loves) - Ellie holds her paws out (warily) - Tamber - lies on bed with paw dangling over the side - but only allows two cuts at a time - Jaffa is my only success - I hold the nail grinder up + biscuit barrel and she comes and turns turtle between my legs waving her paws under my nose - clip - biscuit repeat. with Cola at the moment I hold a chewy with one hand - Cola chews and I pretend to cut his nails most of the time with an occasional cut - but I am struggling with black nails and so only take the smallest of cuts. But Cola likes digging, so I thought I might try a scratch pad - has anyone tried one?

 

[snowbunny]

It sounds like you're going waaaaaaay too fast. There should be no reaction to anything you do when it comes to nails.

Deb Jones has a course All About Nails, but it's just run and so probably won't run again for another year. Her Cooperative Care class is good (but not specifically nails) but, again, that's not running again for a few months. It may be worth getting her book. I believe @HAH has it, so she might tell you if it's worth it.

As you may remember, Willow was terribly scared of having her nails done. She would scream as soon as the clippers touched her feet, and that all came down to us gently restraining her and trying to distract her with sardines to have them done when she was a puppy. When she realised what was going on, she totally freaked. Worst decision ever, and I'm now very vocal when people suggest distraction as a valid technique for husbandry because if it goes wrong, you can screw yourself up for years!

With her, we went right back to basics. A few times, in fact. I've learnt a lot along the way and, whilst she'll never love having her nails done, she is always very keen to start, and she opts in (or not) every step of the way.

Here are some (rather long) bullet points:

• Create a place where you will always do the trimming. It should be utterly predictable to the dog that this is what is going to happen. They should never be tricked into it. If you move about a lot, that "place" can be a mat that you always use for trimming, so you can take it with you.
• First and foremost, magnetise your dog to that place so that, when the cues are in place (eg the mat is down, or the bench is put out, or just when you get the nail clippers) they rush to it. It should be a place of happiness and joy, and they should always be allowed to leave if they choose. An easy way to magnetise them is to lure them onto the table (I'm going to go with table from now on, but replace with whatever you will use) and then feed them ten treats, one at a time in place. Then toss a treat off, so they jump off. Lure back on, ten treats, toss one away. You should find that the dog quickly start popping himself back onto the table as soon as he's had that single treat. Do several sessions of this over a few days until, as soon as you get the table out, the dog jumps up on it eagerly without any cue from you. I'll call this 10:1 from now on.
• When your dog is really happy on the table, start stroking his body, legs, and feet while he's on the table. If he chooses to jump off, that's fine. Throw a treat on the floor for him and call it a day, unless he immediately jumps back, in which case, go back to the 10:1 protocol above for a couple of reps then close the session. So, the stroking may look like you running your hand down his back, then give him a treat. Run your hand down his side, give him a treat. Run your hand down a leg, give a treat. Pick up the foot, give a treat. Move the foot around, give a treat. I'd recommend that you video this to replay so you can look at his body language - where does he start to look less comfortable, so where do you need to go more slowly to get him happier with it? Part of this process is about where you put yourself - when trimming nails, we tend to loom over the dog a lot more than normal, and that can feel really threatening to them, so we have to get them used to it.
• Start tossing the treat on the floor after each stroke/manipulation. Observe how quickly he gets back on the table. If there's a lag, go back to 10:1 to rebuild the association, and then go more slowly through the steps. You're essentially giving the dog a "start button": by jumping on the table, he's telling you that he is ready to have the process begin. You will use this throughout so it's really important that he understands what it means. Important: if he jumps down and disengages DO NOT lure him back. By putting the table out, you are asking him a question "are you OK to do this now?". He HAS to be able to say "not right now, no". If he disengages, he isn't ready in that moment. He may be five minutes later, he may not. Respect his choice and - more than that, pay him for it. That's right, reward him for saying "no". That's part of the deal: either answer from him is the right answer and needs to be rewarded.
• Make your manipulations more relevant to the task in hand. Lift his feet towards your face. Hold the toes individually and firmly. Touch the ends of the nails with your other hand.
• When you're convinced that he's very comfortable with the above (review your videos, remember), you can move on to introducing the tool you're going to use. If you are using clippers, make sure they are incredibly sharp. You should barely have to apply any pressure to cut through the nail; it's that pressure that can twist the nail and make it uncomfortable. I prefer to use the Dremel as it's a lot easier to take off a tiny bit at a time. You want to ensure you're using the right grade paper or, preferably, a diamond bit (which I bought ages ago and is currently waiting for me at Casa @Beanwood since I didn't get over to the UK in May!).
  Introduction to the tool should be a case of jumping on and off the table with it laying down in view to start off with. Video. Review. Is there any hesitation? If so, go back to 10:1.
• At this stage, I want you to review the treats you are using. Make them boring - probably kibble, or Cheerios. I know this goes against everything you likely consider common sense, but the point is that you need your dog to be able to say "no". If the treats are too high value, he won't feel he can. This needs to be a truly cooperative situation, not one that is actually based on coercion due to high value treats. If you need to go back to 10:1, that's where you can use the high value treats to build that feeling of "yay, happy place!" again, but when it comes to the actual trimming procedure, you should go back to something boring.
• What you want to do is build your dog's start button (the jumping on the table) so that he is cuing you to start. Do this by very slowly breaking down the procedure and pairing the start button with what is to come. So, treat on the floor, wait for him to jump up, pick up a foot, throw a treat. He will learn that the jumping up is followed by handling of the foot. If the handling of the foot is aversive, then the jumping up behaviour will diminish and that will be your indication that you have to go back a step or two. If he continues to confidently jump on the table after eating the treat, then you can move on so maybe he jumps on the table, you pick up his foot in one hand, and the Dremel in the other. Treat off the table, watch over several reps to see how the fluidity of his return to the table is affected, if at all. Then pick up the foot in one hand, the Dremel in the other, and turn it on briefly. Treat off, watch the return. You see, really break it down and use that information of how quickly he returns to let you know whether the behaviour of jumping onto the table is being punished or not.
• This ^^ should take at least a couple of weeks to get to this point. Ensure you're working a few times a day for no more than a minute (set an alarm) each time. NO MORE THAN A MINUTE, but you can do it many times throughout the day. Also ensure you're doing each foot equally.
• Next steps would be touching the OFF Dremel to each nail, manipulating the toe as you really would when filing (ensure that you're holding the toe firmly to minimise vibration). Get him used to it being applied at different angles, as you have to when you actually start filing.
• Video, review, video, review. Look at his body language and latency in returning to the table. Remember you are NOT luring him or cuing him to return to the table, he should be magnetised to it.
• Once you've done that and he's still happily returning to the table, it's time to start touching the nail with the file running. This is where you will have to be very careful to listen to him. Give him a couple of reps of touching the nail with the Dremel off, then a couple of NOT touching the nail but having the Dremel running, then the slightest light touch to the nail. Remember to treat off the table. Make a big fuss of him however he reacts. You may have to go back to 10:1 for a while after this, and work your way back through. That is fine. It may take a week before you feel he's ready to touch a nail again. That is also OK. The slower the better. Always. Video, review, watch his body language and latency. Sessions no more than a minute.

That's probably enough drivel for now!

Just be aware that when dogs' nails are long, they will be quite tender. It's the same as if we don't trim our toenails and they get banged against the ends of our shoes. You can do this, but be prepared for it to take a few months, get them trimmed under GA if he's going in for that anyway, and video and review at every session.

 

[snowbunny]

I thought I might try a scratch pad - has anyone tried one?

I did. I didn't get on with it. It was for Willow who totally freaked out about her nails, but she was highly suspicious of the scratch board, too. And there's the question of back feet, which are far more difficult to train than front ones. I know lots of people rate them, but my experience was that it just wasn't worth the stress.

 

[Cath]

You’re not a failure @Natalie -

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Definitely not a failure, @Natalie .

I have a hard time with nails, too. I'm good at teeth, stink at nails. A GA seems quite radical for a nail trim only but of course a good plan if he has something else he's going under for.

Maybe we should do another nail cut challenge month? The last time Carbon's nails were really decent was when we did that over a year ago. @HAH took the crown that time around.

 

[kateincornwall]

Not a failure at all @Natalie , Nelly screams like she is being murdered and having front and rear dew claws means that they have to be snipped regularly , we dread it

 

[Atemas]

I hate cutting Red’s nails and have to psych myself up to do it. I am terrified of hurting her. I need to do them this week

 

[Oberon]

Obi is totally fine with it and I still absolutely hate doing it! No one should feel bad about feeling bad about potentially making their dog upset or uncomfortable. It’s because you care.

 

[Natalie]

Firstly, thanks you for your comments- seems I am not alone in this.

@snowbunny , thank you for that process of setting everything out. Yes, I've tried to move too quickly with him. But you given me hope that I *might* be able to get to the point where I could trim a nail in 5-6 weeks time. I was thinking it could be months and months.

I am going to stick with the grinder, as that's what I feel most comfortable with, and the (human) clippers I was using before are nowhere near sharp enough, which has probably made things worse. I will still speak to the vet to see if he's going to have the tooth removed, or whether they nails are imminently causing him problems . I would hope not - he has hydro once a month and would think the physio would have picked this up, plus he had his annual MOT in late May - they are slow growing so wouldn't have changed much since then.

I assume this would be the best approach to employ with Bear, too?

I'll have a look at that co-operative care book, thank you. I think the most daunting bit of this is the videoing, no idea how I will try and film at ground level - Monty wil be unformforabel jumping up on anything new that';s smaller than a bed or sofa, and nothing springs to mind other than a mat - should it have a different feel to it than all the other rugs and fleeces that he lies on?

And finally, just a question about treats- should they be of low - medium value the whole way through, or should I start with high value to increase the positive association with the mat?

 

[Natalie]

I've found the book - is the physical version worth it for additional images, or would the kindle version be fine? (it's £4 cheaper)

 

[snowbunny]

I will still speak to the vet to see if he's going to have the tooth removed, or whether they nails are imminently causing him problems . I would hope not - he has hydro once a month and would think the physio would have picked this up, plus he had his annual MOT in late May - they are slow growing so wouldn't have changed much since then.

Some vets and physios seem really sharp on this, others not at all. Basically, a good rule of thumb is that when your dog stands normally, the nails should not be in contact with the ground. Even better is that you don't hear them touch the ground when they walk - it is at this point that they start to affect the dog's gait (again, think about how uncomfortable it is when your toenails are pressed against the inside of your shoes).

I assume this would be the best approach to employ with Bear, too?

I'd start at the beginning and take it at his pace. If he's had no negative experiences, he may be able to move on more quickly. It's always about taking it at the dog's pace.

I think the most daunting bit of this is the videoing, no idea how I will try and film at ground level - Monty wil be unformforabel jumping up on anything new that';s smaller than a bed or sofa, and nothing springs to mind other than a mat - should it have a different feel to it than all the other rugs and fleeces that he lies on?

It's far easier for you to work if the dog is even slightly elevated. When I started out, I used a low coffee table for my lot. It was glass, but I put a piece of wood and then vet bed on top of it, so that became the cue that it was now a husbandry station. Now, I tend to use the sofa, but my dogs are all very savvy to the antecedents that say "it's nail trimming time now", so there's no confusion. It's best to be really clear at the start though that this is very different, so that he knows that it's this particular setup he's magnetising to, and not just any rug on the floor, or the sofa in any normal situation. I would imagine that Deb gives examples in the book which may inspire you. It being new is a good thing. If Monty isn't comfortable just jumping onto a new object, then that becomes your first task! So again, you'd break it down into tiny bits that make it achievable and fun for him.
As for videoing, just prop your phone up on something, or you can use a GorillaPod to attach it to a piece of furniture or put on a shelf. This sort of thing: Amazon.co.uk : phone tripod flexible

And finally, just a question about treats- should they be of low - medium value the whole way through, or should I start with high value to increase the positive association with the mat?

I would use high to start off with, any any time you're working on the positive associations with the station, and drop it to low value whenever you're asking him to do something that you know he won't be comfortable with, such as the filing itself.

I should also mention that I always end the session with a game, whether or not the dog has chosen to end it. If they opt out, then that is just information that it was too hard for them this particular session (and that may not always be linear - all sorts of things can affect how able they are to do something difficult at any moment in time, just the same as with us), so take it to make changes in your next session if need's be, but still play your "that's all done" game.

 

[snowbunny]

I am a sucker for immediate gratification and empty shelves, so I prefer Kindle every time. If you think you might prefer to flick through it, though, then go for the hard copy. I think this is something that you know best about yourself

 

[Natalie]

Thanks you @snowbunny for your really comprehensive reply. Realszed I could get the kindle version on my tablet which include the graphics, so best of both.
I'm going to try my treadmill as a base, with a cover over it. It's nice and sturdy, raised at least six inches off the ground, and it's a completely new place for him to be for any sort of training / doing stuff, as it's in the garage.

 

[snowbunny]

Sounds like a great plan!

I had another thought, and that's when I'm working with one dog, the others are all sat around watching. I will chuck them the occasional treat, too, for staying out of it and being polite. It's really funny how this seems to build the anticipation of "MY TURN!" so they absolutely leap into place when I call their name. It might be something you can work on a bit with your boys

 

[Natalie]

Sounds like a great plan!

I had another thought, and that's when I'm working with one dog, the others are all sat around watching. I will chuck them the occasional treat, too, for staying out of it and being polite. It's really funny how this seems to build the anticipation of "MY TURN!" so they absolutely leap into place when I call their name. It might be something you can work on a bit with your boys

Ha, funny you should mention that. I decided to seize the moment and have a go. Although I am doing lots of work on the boys being calm and waiting their turn (this is very much an early WIP) I decided that for this purpose, they would be completely alone. The garage is integrated, so I can close the door and not be interrupted by the other dog. So I thought.

Update so far (I didn't video this as I anticipated zero issues)
Monty session 1:

1. Hopped straight up on the treadmill as soon as I popped a piece of roast chicken on it.
2. 10 treats of chicken, threw one off
3. A wave of my arm in the direction of the treadmill had him back on. Then gave him a cheezy bowl to lick out on there. (zen bowl?)
4. 10 more treats , 1 on the floor
5. 10 more treats
6. Prize was hiding a lotus ball in the garden with more chicken in it.

Bear session 1:

1. He was up on the treadmill straight away, no issue
2. 10 treats and off, hopped straight back up
3. ten treats and one off, hopped straight back up.
4. Had to lure him off the treadmill with another piece of chicken cos he had no intention of moving while there was chicken in my hand.

short break

Monty session 2

just as first session, he isn't hopping straight back up immediately, but works it out within a few seconds. However as we were finishing, there's a scratching at the back door, and Bear is forcing his little head through the cat flap, and desperately trying to get in through a gap that's half his size. Crying when he can't get to the chicken and scratching at the door
I think this could stress Monty out a bit, and I don't want him to think that there's any issue at all with Bear getting his treats, or with Bear losing it and jumping all over the treadmill with Monty on it. I think Monty would be ok watching Bear, but not the other way around.

 

[snowbunny]

Bear's still only a baby, so it's not surprising, but it's so much easier when you can do things with the other dogs watching and waiting their turn, so that's something I prioritised quite early with Squidge. The problem is when you're trying to concentrate on something with your "working" dog, so in the early days of the puppy learning the skill, you really have to be doing something unimportant with the working dog. You don't want to risk icky feelings in something this important and even you turning away because you're distracted can cause those.

Sounds like you had a great start! It took Willow a few goes before she was surging towards the station, as she's naturally a bit distrustful of new situations, but now it's hard to keep her back when she thinks it should be her turn

 

[Natalie]

Bear's still only a baby, so it's not surprising, but it's so much easier when you can do things with the other dogs watching and waiting their turn, so that's something I prioritised quite early with Squidge. The problem is when you're trying to concentrate on something with your "working" dog, so in the early days of the puppy learning the skill, you really have to be doing something unimportant with the working dog. You don't want to risk icky feelings in something this important and even you turning away because you're distracted can cause those.

Sounds like you had a great start! It took Willow a few goes before she was surging towards the station, as she's naturally a bit distrustful of new situations, but now it's hard to keep her back when she thinks it should be her turn

Thank you Fiona, you've inspired me to think that I really could actually make some progress here, whereas yesterday morning I was completely dejected about the whole thing and saw the only way out as getting them done under GA. But, I've got to try so so hard not to rush this.

Monty's not anything like Willow was, but he is a bit of a sensitive soul at times, (I've only really noticed it's significant since the arrival of uber confident Bear ) and Bear arriving has unsettled him a little. Doesn't help that Bear can be a complete dickhead and an outrageous, thieving, cunning puppy.

 

[Natalie]

So, not sure what I think about this. Got a vet appt today to coincide with his treadmill hydro session, and explained in advance about his teeth and nails. OH took him as I'm (allegedly) working, and phoned me on the way home to update. Teeth are fine, turns out they same tooth each side has twisted, rather than cracked, and is just growing at a different angle, no cause for alarm. (completely different story to what the vet and vet nurse said in May, but heigh ho)

And the nails - have all been cut! I told the receptionist yesterday there was no way they would be able to do it, but they got an extra person in, did it super quickly, and apparently he wasn't too bad in there, so the vet says -and OH said he was very calm coming out and getting back into the car.

So, half of me is super relieved, as they were clearly too long and i *think* they may have been affecting his gait, and now gives me lots of time to work on the cooperative care. The other part of me is annoyed and upset because I know this would have really distressed Monty, and I have paid a lot of time into him having good associations at the vet (the hydro); as he also gets some not so good sessions when his joints are manipulated and he gets a cartophen injection.