I'm looking for a bit of basic advice here; I'd love to start giving Kipper the odd bone, but am not sure of the simple rules. Do they need to be fresh (so they don't splinter)? How much is okay for a nearly-10-months-old lab? And in terms of calorie intake - I'm guessing marrow is pretty substantial, so reduce other meals accordingly? OR is it a bit early for him, given that his teeth are young and his tummy not necessarily the most robust?
Raw bones - what are the rules?
- Thread starter HAH
- Start date
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
It’s ok to feed raw food at his age.
The one golden rule is: never any cooked bones. They are too hard and can either splinter or break teeth.
The other rules I personally follow (based on my experience of a broken doggie tooth and a veterinary dentist’s advice) are:
- no mammal leg bones (they are too hard, risk of broken teeth)
- never any bones that have been left outside to dry out and get hard. If it’s it eaten throw it out
- only bones that can be crunched up and eaten fairly quickly. Nothing that lasts and can be gnawed on (this wears down teeth)
- go for bones covered in meat - that means your dog gets a good ratio of nutrients without a calcium imbalance (too much bone = too much calcium).
Examples of things I’d happily feed are:
- any part of any kind of bird (except a leg bone from an emu, haha!)
- any part of a rabbit
- any part of a fish or a whole fish (most dogs will want scales removed)
- lamb or goat necks, ribs, chops
- any offal safe for human consumption
- oxtail
- when feeding beef I actually avoid any bones and usually go for off the bone but beef ribs would be fine I reckon.
Dog teeth are not as robust as human teeth and have very thin enamel compared to us. It’s not the way you’d expect it to be but there it is
Dog teeth weren’t meant to gnaw on heavy bones, as much as dogs might like to do it...
The one golden rule is: never any cooked bones. They are too hard and can either splinter or break teeth.
The other rules I personally follow (based on my experience of a broken doggie tooth and a veterinary dentist’s advice) are:
- no mammal leg bones (they are too hard, risk of broken teeth)
- never any bones that have been left outside to dry out and get hard. If it’s it eaten throw it out
- only bones that can be crunched up and eaten fairly quickly. Nothing that lasts and can be gnawed on (this wears down teeth)
- go for bones covered in meat - that means your dog gets a good ratio of nutrients without a calcium imbalance (too much bone = too much calcium).
Examples of things I’d happily feed are:
- any part of any kind of bird (except a leg bone from an emu, haha!)
- any part of a rabbit
- any part of a fish or a whole fish (most dogs will want scales removed)
- lamb or goat necks, ribs, chops
- any offal safe for human consumption
- oxtail
- when feeding beef I actually avoid any bones and usually go for off the bone but beef ribs would be fine I reckon.
Dog teeth are not as robust as human teeth and have very thin enamel compared to us. It’s not the way you’d expect it to be but there it is
Dog teeth weren’t meant to gnaw on heavy bones, as much as dogs might like to do it...So interesting about the robustness of the teeth of humans vs dogs. I’ve broken a tooth on an olive pit but Snowie can quite easily chomp through bones that sound really hard (not mammalian leg bones, but a neck bone). I wonder whether dogs that eat bones for their diet have harder teeth than dogs that eat kibble or soft prepared minced raw food. I remember chatting to my dentist years ago about how chewing raw crunchy veg is really good for teeth for increasing circulation and laying down enamel. It’s like bones increasing in density by doing weight training, or astronauts losing bone density after being in a weightless environment.It’s ok to feed raw food at his age.
The one golden rule is: never any cooked bones. They are too hard and can either splinter or break teeth.
The other rules I personally follow (based on my experience of a broken doggie tooth and a veterinary dentist’s advice) are:
- no mammal leg bones (they are too hard, risk of broken teeth)
- never any bones that have been left outside to dry out and get hard. If it’s it eaten throw it out
- only bones that can be crunched up and eaten fairly quickly. Nothing that lasts and can be gnawed on (this wears down teeth)
- go for bones covered in meat - that means your dog gets a good ratio of nutrients without a calcium imbalance (too much bone = too much calcium).
Examples of things I’d happily feed are:
- any part of any kind of bird (except a leg bone from an emu, haha!)
- any part of a rabbit
- any part of a fish or a whole fish (most dogs will want scales removed)
- lamb or goat necks, ribs, chops
- any offal safe for human consumption
- oxtail
- when feeding beef I actually avoid any bones and usually go for off the bone but beef ribs would be fine I reckon.
Dog teeth are not as robust as human teeth and have very thin enamel compared to us. It’s not the way you’d expect it to be but there it is
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
Enamel is formed before teeth erupt from the gums. The enamel is laid down by specialised cells. One the tooth erupts the specialised cells’ job is done and the cells die. Once teeth erupt there is no way to lay down new enamel.
Bones are different. They have a blood supply and are living tissue. Bones can mend and reform and they are adaptive to their environment (so, weight bearing will strengthen bones). Teeth are not anything like bones. Enamel cannot be reformed and is not adaptive.
Once teeth are erupted they can certainly be made weaker, through excessive pressure forming cracks, or bacteria/decay. But nature can’t make them stronger than they already are. So, no, diet or eating habits won’t strengthen teeth once they have formed. That’s why it’s so important to look after them. You and your dog only get one adult set for life.
Dogs have way more jaw strength or bite force than humans do so that’s why your dog can split bones you can’t. Again, that is why we need to be careful giving hard objects to dogs. Their huge jaw strength far outweighs the ability of their teeth to handle it, where hard objects are concerned.
Bones are different. They have a blood supply and are living tissue. Bones can mend and reform and they are adaptive to their environment (so, weight bearing will strengthen bones). Teeth are not anything like bones. Enamel cannot be reformed and is not adaptive.
Once teeth are erupted they can certainly be made weaker, through excessive pressure forming cracks, or bacteria/decay. But nature can’t make them stronger than they already are. So, no, diet or eating habits won’t strengthen teeth once they have formed. That’s why it’s so important to look after them. You and your dog only get one adult set for life.
Dogs have way more jaw strength or bite force than humans do so that’s why your dog can split bones you can’t. Again, that is why we need to be careful giving hard objects to dogs. Their huge jaw strength far outweighs the ability of their teeth to handle it, where hard objects are concerned.
That’s fascinating- so is wild dogs’ (wolves etc) tooth enamel harder than domesticated dogs? It seems a disappointing evolutionary quirk that domesticated canine tooth strength has depleted but jaw strength stayed the same. Not the only one of course - nature’s wonderful and perverse!
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
Good question. I wouldn’t think that wolf teeth would be any harder than domestic dog teeth but they might be and I’m sure science has got the answer
Jaw strength is about holding onto stuff as well as crushing stuff (so, stopping prey from running away, not just crunching it up afterwards). I think there’s been some research done to show that large predators like wolves don’t actually eat the large bones of a carcass. So, it would seem that wolves don’t actually prefer to use their huge jaw strength to chew very hard stuff and therefore their teeth did not evolve primarily for that purpose. Meaning neither did our dogs’ teeth.
Here’s some info about a research project that looks at and records what wolves leave behind when they kill a large mammal (don’t look if you have an aversion to seeing pics of moose skeletons!): Why Don't Wolves Eat All That They Kill? | The Wolves and Moose of Isle Royale
Jaw strength is about holding onto stuff as well as crushing stuff (so, stopping prey from running away, not just crunching it up afterwards). I think there’s been some research done to show that large predators like wolves don’t actually eat the large bones of a carcass. So, it would seem that wolves don’t actually prefer to use their huge jaw strength to chew very hard stuff and therefore their teeth did not evolve primarily for that purpose. Meaning neither did our dogs’ teeth.
Here’s some info about a research project that looks at and records what wolves leave behind when they kill a large mammal (don’t look if you have an aversion to seeing pics of moose skeletons!): Why Don't Wolves Eat All That They Kill? | The Wolves and Moose of Isle Royale
Remineralisation of teeth - Wikipedia
“Tooth remineralisation is a naturally occurring process in the oral cavity.[2] It is defined as a process in which calcium and phosphate ionsare sourced to promote ion deposition into crystal voids in demineralised enamel. Remineralisation remains imperative towards the management of non-cavitated carious lesions and prevention of disease progression within the oral cavity. The process also has the ability to contribute towards restoring strength and function within tooth structure.[3]”
The above article only talks about chemical remineralisation and not about weight-bearing activities. I’ll look online if there’s any published research.
“Tooth remineralisation is a naturally occurring process in the oral cavity.[2] It is defined as a process in which calcium and phosphate ionsare sourced to promote ion deposition into crystal voids in demineralised enamel. Remineralisation remains imperative towards the management of non-cavitated carious lesions and prevention of disease progression within the oral cavity. The process also has the ability to contribute towards restoring strength and function within tooth structure.[3]”
The above article only talks about chemical remineralisation and not about weight-bearing activities. I’ll look online if there’s any published research.
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
Yes, remineralisation is a process of halting or reversing the removal of calcium and phosphate from teeth once they are damaged by bacteria/acid etc. This is probably what your dentist was talking about. It's not the restoration or rebuilding of enamel though. Remineralised enamel is not new enamel and it is not as strong as undamaged enamel.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
Thank you for the info, @Oberon ! My new raw food store just encouraged me to try beef bones and I'm a bit squicky about it - both because I'm not a fan of any beef or pork for myself or my dogs and also I was worried about the size/hardness of them. The lady at the store said the bones come from the chest of the cow (so I understood part of the ribs) and are cut into about 3" cubes which also have meat on them. I'm not really convinced, but will try 1-2 as snacks and see how they go down.
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
I would say just give it a go, Emily. Beef ribs would be one of the softer bones, I reckon. Pretty low risk.
I've given beef ribs to my dogs, but Merlin is a terrible gulper and TWICE swallowed a whole portion of rib, about 4 inches long, without chewing it. So I won't give them those any more...
- Location
- Argyll & Bute, Scotland
I used to give consumable bones to Hattie & Charlie but can't now as Pets as Therapy now won't allow any dogs fed on raw be a PAT dog in the NHS or any educational establishment x
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- Location
- Canberra, Australia
Cooked food is just fine and there are better ways to clean teeth than meaty bones. I’m sure Hattie and Charlie enjoy their meals as much as ever
- Location
- Argyll & Bute, Scotland
Oh definitely, I brush their teeth every night anyway. I really liked giving them the bones as a treat. Never mind they get lots of good things to eat so I'm sure they haven't noticed x
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This is a huge fear of mine, which keeps me from giving Axel raw bones. I worry he will break off a chunk and try to break it down and won’t be able to so he will just gulp it down, and then choke or have an obstruction.
I won’t lie, I give him the odd marrow bone as a special treat. I find the one with the most meat on it to chew off then let him lick the marrow out and that’s it.
Start with soft bones like chicken wings with all the meat on. Let him get used to chewing properly. And supervise all the time if you’re worried. Some dogs gulp, throw it up immediately, re-chew, and swallow again with no issue.
I don’t have many options at our pet store for chicken unfortunately. They only have chicken necks which they warned me are very slippery so that of course worried me? and the odd times they get chicken feet.
- Location
- SW London UK
When I remember, I get packs of chicken wings from the supermarket for Homer. I freeze them and give them to him frozen, but reading stories about giving ice cubes to dogs I'll probably leave them to defrost, or at least partly defrost.
I don't go to the butcher often but always ask for something for Homer when I do go in. I have to be quite specific each time as they've come out with delicious looking hefty leg bones that I have to decline as he won't gnaw on it but try to crack it. Sometimes I buy a whole oxtail, although a cheeper cut of meat still expensive at the gourmet organic butchers. Last week the Butcher was cutting up a lamb and gave us the top end of the tail for Homer. Perfect!! Fatty, meaty and crunchy and free!
I don't go to the butcher often but always ask for something for Homer when I do go in. I have to be quite specific each time as they've come out with delicious looking hefty leg bones that I have to decline as he won't gnaw on it but try to crack it. Sometimes I buy a whole oxtail, although a cheeper cut of meat still expensive at the gourmet organic butchers. Last week the Butcher was cutting up a lamb and gave us the top end of the tail for Homer. Perfect!! Fatty, meaty and crunchy and free!
Can you rather buy meaty bones at the supermarket? Or a butchery? Or find out if someone delivers. I have Snowie’s food delivered by a butchery that sells “dog food” cos it’s mostly animal body parts that aren’t normally sold in regular supermarkets—it’s the cheaper, icky bits that people in my area don’t eat. Like dirty green tripe!