Retrieving - advice wanted

Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
I have searched through other posts on this topic but can't find anything that relates to my particular problem.
Rajah (Golden Retriever I borrow) needs to learn to retrieve for Rally Level 5 - which is a way off but not out of the bounds of possibility.
The problem is that with me he won't pick anything up or take any object from me. I know how to train so that a game of fetch becomes a formal retrieve - I did this successfully with Molly, but I'm a bit stumped by Rajah's unwillingness to take anything in his mouth - he won't play fetch or tug.

I haven't even attempted making it a 'retrieve', just thrown things, shaken things, tried to hand him things etc. I have tried with gundog dummies, soft toys with and without squeakers, rubber rings, plastic toys, a dumbbell and a tennis ball.

I think the problem is me as his owner says he does carry things around at home - and I have seen him with a ball in his mouth at home. I have NEVER spoken sharply to Rajah or hurt him in anyway but I have rewarded very heavily with food for keeping his attention on me when there are distractions around, including toys (as ignoring a toy while you heel past it is a Rally exercise.) I'm convinced he believes I want him to ignore the toys I offer. And when I have tried shaking them/ wriggling them around he has just backed off looking really worried (so of course I stopped.)

Today I tried throwing a tennis ball and he did run after it and sort of danced around it, but then stopped and came back to me and leant in close. I didn't give food but ran to the ball and threw it again, saying 'get it'. Again he ran and pranced and returned to me. I repeated a couple more times and then gave up and put the ball away.

A couple of weeks ago I tried smearing cream cheese on a plastic dumbbell and holding it out to him. He licked the cheese off but didn't attempt to take the dumbbell and when I pushed it towards his mouth he backed off.

So what do you think? Keep trying with the ball? Try again with cream cheese on the dumbbell? Or something else?
I don't need a quick fix - I've got plenty of time to train this, but I can't see a way forward.
 
Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
Thank you very much @Selina27 - I don't think I've ever read this article. I've had a quick look and I'll read more thoroughly this evening. It certainly looks worth trying, though I only see Rajah once a week. However I've clicker trained other things with him and he gets very excited when the clicker makes an appearance. I won't see him till next Monday but ~I'll make a plan and let you know how it goes. Thanks!
 
Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
I had to miss my session with Rajah last week (family bereavement) but saw him today and started the clicker retrieve. We only got as far as marking him for sniffing it - not quite a nose touch. I thought I might keep a record of progress on this thread. I'll see him next Monday but then will unfortunately have to have a few weeks break. I'm looking at the end of April for his next show, but that won't include a retrieve.

With other Rally exercises Rajah is coming on in leaps and bounds, looking really happy and focused. He jumps very confidently now and gets quite excited about it. When we started training the jump he was so nervous I had to place the pole on the ground and reward multiple times for just running over that. Now he sails over it. I try to remind myself about how gradually I've had to take things with him so that I know learning a retrieve is possible - it just might take the rest of theyear!
 
M

M.F.

I just want to say how impressed I am by your patience and perseverance. I don’t do any formal training with Snowie—he’s 13 years old. Of course, just getting through the day includes requesting behaviours and rewarding them. But I am reminded why I am not a dog trainer—it’s a delayed-gratification game that requires tons of skill and patience!
 
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Beanwood

Beanwood

Administrator
I teach a retreive for Scentwork. At silver level, the dogs need to search for a scented article, and bring it to hand. We teach drive and motivation first, working on building arousal. This also helps me see if there are issues with drive and picking up things. With Rajah, he might benefit from a bit of play, swapsies for example, then look at shaping the hand delivery. The other way, it he is a bit slow on the "out" is to use a placeboard and bowl. Get Raj into a nice heel next to you on a placeboard - have a bowl or container with high value treats about 10 feet in front ( 12 o clock ) get him excited about the food - send him out, then back on the placeboard and feed in place. Then replace the food bowl with a toy. The reinforcement history gets him happily running in - then reward when back on the placeboard. You still might have to break that down a bit, and not worry about steadiness at this stage, the aim is happily running to the food bowl/ toy. I can try and get a video in the next couple of days! :inlove:
 
Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
Thanks @Beanwood I appreciate any help you can give. Rajah is fine on a send-away to a mat (this was a Rally exercise but it has just been removed). The problem I have is that he won't pick up anything in his mouth when he's with me - I don't just mean taking it from me, not from the ground either. I certainly wouldn't mind lack of steadiness at this stage if he would go and fetch but he won't - he goes towards the object and then returns to me without it. When I've tried being 'jolly', shaking the toy and skipping around, he just looks nervous.
 
Stacia

Stacia

Location
Malvern Worcestershire
@Joy, a friend had a dog who would not retrieve or pick up the item, one day, in desperation, she rubbed the dummy with cheesy. biscuits and that was the breakthrough. I think you can buy a retrieve article that has a treat inside, that may make him more interested to approach the retrieve and then possibly pick it up and take it to you to open it and give hime the treat inside. Perhaps you could put the cheesy biscuit rubbed dummy on the floor and then sit down and read a book and completely ignore him and that removes any pressure and see what he does naturally.
 
Selina27

Selina27

Location
Herefordshire, UK
Just another thought @Joy , would it be worth trying something like a rabbit skin dummy or ball? Cass is very particular what she carries in her mouth -- she won't pick up hard plastic and dislikes sheepskin.She's fine with canvas dummies, and socks of course!
But rabbit skin is her favourite.
 
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HAH

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
Joy said:
@Jelinga I have tried smearingf cream cheese on the dumbbell. he licked it off but mad no attempt to take it in his mouth. I'm outside in public places with Rajah (Downs or park) so I don't feel I can just ignore him - it's a very different situation than with one's own dog at home.

@Selina27 I haven't tried rabbit skin so I guess I could buy one and see if that works.
Click to expand...
I’ve only just read the latest posts to this - thanks @Beanwood for the ‘outrun’ training idea, I’d like to start this with our boys for some fun.
@Joy you may well have already tried it, but I wondered if a toy with a food pouch - like a clam or food pouch (or even a small pencil case, looking at these!) - and high reward stuff inside might work for him, just to introduce the idea of picking up and bringing back to get a reward? Does he pick anything up? If so , could you work with shaping the behaviour at all?
 
Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
@Selina27 Thanks for your interest Helen. I've had to miss the borrowed dogs for a couple of weeks as I've had my sister's dog (Labx) to stay and she was crying whenever I left her with my OH. I hadn't progressed beyond the sniff at object. Meanwhile at home Rajah continues to steal objects and make off with them.
@HAH I'll give this a try but I'm not optimistic - he just won't pick anything up when he's out with me and me bouncing around trying to make it a fun game simply makes him nervous.
I may just need to accept that this is one exercise we can't do. When I was competing with Molly she loved the retrieve and did it perfectly, yet it rarely came up!

I'll be back with the borrowed doggies next Monday so I'll try something like food in a sock - socks are one of the things that Rajah regularly steals (and swallows!) at home. I seem to have inadvertently trained a very effective leave-it without any cue - Rajah believes that all objects on the ground must be ignored when he is 'working' with me.
 
Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
So I tried 3 approaches on Monday
1. Using a dumbbell and clicking for a sniff at it. I think the problem with this is my timing. I waited too long, hoping for more than a sniff and then when he raised his head I clicked - so all I have done is reinforce his belief that it is leaving the object that brings the reward. Duh! (to me, not Raj)

2. I tried putting a kong on the ground containing some loose treats which would have just fallen out if he had lifted the kong. Rajah lay down and licked it but didn't attempt to pick it up.

3. I put down a sock containing a few treats. Again he lay down put did actually take the sock in his mouth to chew it. At this point I became afraid he might swallow the sock (he has a history of doing this at home) so I went over, whereupon he dropped the sock and I took the treats out and fed them to him.

So the plan for next week (This feels like plan 189, sub-section c.... :wasntme:) - I've got a flatish empty, clean plastic bottle with a wide mouth. I'm going to put some smelly loose treats inside and try to hand it to him. The aim is for him to take it from me. I don't care if he then immediately drops it. The idea is that then the treats will fall out. To be honest I'm not optimistic this will work.

I've double checked the Rally rules and the retrieve only appears as a possible bonus at Levels 5 and 6, so when/if we get to that level, I can just opt not to do the bonus (although that does mean 10 points down the drain.)

Our next show is at the end of April, Levels 3 and 4, so I'm probably better focusing on the exercises we need for that.
 
Joy

Joy

Location
East Sussex
It didn't work at all - no surprise really.

I've decided to pause and focus on other training until after the next show at the end of April. Yesterday I hired a sand school for an hour and set out a course. Rajah was quite hesitant and a bit worried looking so it might have been the surface or it might have been all the signs indicating 'this is serious'. I don't usually bother to put out signs for training but for the next few weeks I'm going to put out at least a few wherever we are (normally Downs or parks) - I've taken a few classes/webinairs from Petra Ford at Fenzi over the last year and she insists of the importance of rehearsing everything as it will be in the ring.
 
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