So hope this conversation happens!

I'll have a read later, @Joy, thanks for sharing!

Have you seen the Darwin's Dogs study? I've signed up for my lot, but not completed many questionnaires yet. I think it's potentially very exciting - and fascinating that owner-completed questionnaires are more reliable than canine experts observing unfamiliar dogs!

https://darwinsark.org/
 
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Joy

Location
East Sussex
Thanks @HAH - I hadn't thought about the issue of whether it was actually fear they were measuring or other arousal states, and I see now that yes it isn't a causal link. (I have no scientific background, but love reading about it, so sometimes need help!) I suppose I've been wondering why the brain should only lose its plasticity in relation to fear once past childhood, as we know that (for example in stroke patients) the brain can adapt cognitively - and generally as adults people are capable of continuing to learn and change their opinions, which presumably means changes in the brain?

I hadn't heard of the Darwin's Dogs study @snowbunny - I'll have a proper read during the day.
 
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I think the issue isn't so much that the brain can't change - we know it can, as we continue to learn - but that the previous learning is very unlikely to be extinguished (except in the case of trauma). So what we are doing generally when dealing with fear is layering new learning over the top. That works whilst we are providing the therapy, but the old learned fear is never extinguished, meaning it will re-emerge very easily under a tiny stimulus. Think of it in terms of an assault victim: let's say that a woman has been assaulted by her male partner and becomes fearful of all men. Over time, she might then learn that not all men are threats, and she goes back to living a "normal" life, with both male and female companions. Then, she catches a scent of the same aftershave that her assailant was wearing at the time. She reverts to her previous fearful state. This is the same thing; the learned fear is simply suppressed, not extinguished, otherwise that stimulus would have no impact.
 

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
sometimes need help
I think I'm the one that needs help @Joy :D A lot of my job is assessing other people's research so I often get far too bogged down in the detail.

A bit off-topic, I listened to this podcast yesterday about BF Skinner who's often called the Father of Behavioural Psychology - he's your feller who developed operant conditioning. He asserted that the environment drives behaviour, and did a lot of work looking at behavioural reinforcement and variable ratio reinforcement (unpredictable rewards reinforce behaviours better than consistent and predictable rewards): BBC Radio 4 - Mind Changers, BF Skinner and Superstition in the Pigeon
It might be worthwhile as a refresher or introduction to his work, as it talks a little about how views on behavioural psychology have changed and developed since then. I also really like Claudia Hammond and am planning to work my way through the series.
 

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
I love that article, thanks for sharing @snowbunny . Completely agree with your cautions around Skinner's work - and whilst (to me, anyhoo!) it's useful to see where a lot of these ideas started and developed, one of the things I like about the podcast is that it takes a skeptical view in critiquing where these ideas fall down and have been replaced by more up-to-date work.
One of the blokes interviewed makes the point that in lots of areas of science people talk about being able to see further because we're 'standing on the shoulders of giants', whereas in behavioural (and other areas of) psychology we sometimes have trouble seeing any distance because we're standing in deep pits dug by giants such as Freud and Skinner. VRR is a great example, and I think that we've moved some way from this old skool experimental atittude (control all the variables and assume any effect is purely due to scientific manipulation) towards placing greater value on real life observational work allowing for individual differences etc.. This is where I think behavioural research has been heading, and it's quite exciting.
 
This is where I think behavioural research has been heading, and it's quite exciting.
It's incredibly exciting, because it's stuff that makes a practical difference. It's important to get the results in the lab, of course, but sometimes it is difficult to apply them to the real world where we just don't have the same level of control (and nor, to be honest, would we want it). It's very easy to spew the rhetoric of "scientifically proven" when it comes to R+, but sometimes the real-life results are far harder to achieve than those seen in the lab. To be able to extend the science to make it an applied science is when it starts to become far more real and useful to the likes of you or I :)
 
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Joy

Location
East Sussex
One of you may know if there has been any research to show if there is any difference between rational and irrational fears. I'm wondering whether it is possible for irrational fears (phobias if you like) to be completely irradicated. I can sort of see some evolutionary benefit in a woman who has been assaulted by a man retaining some fear / caution in future, whereas an irrational fear of say spiders (in the UK where they are harmless) seems to hold no benefit.
I'm wondering why belief systems (a religious belief for example) can be completely changed in adulthood but not fears. I suppose I'm looking for evidence to disprove the assertion of the original article.
 
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I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as an irrational fear. We might label them that way, and we might not look into it deeply enough to realise the rationality behind it, but we have been classically conditioned somehow that that thing is scary. With spiders and suchlike, that's often something that's passed from parent to child.

I was thinking about this at the weekend; I was listening to James O'Brian's Mystery Hour podcast while I was cooking and there was the question "Do animals suffer from irrational fears like humans?". The callers that tried to answer were all suitably vague, but it got me thinking about whether there really is a thing as an irrational fear at all. We don't tend to think of animals as having the ability to rationalise in the same way as us, and if that is true, then there can't be such a thing as an irrational fear, because any fear they have must be for a reason. What we can see in a dog is what we would deem to be a disproportionate level of fear to the perceived thread - and we can't argue that the dog perceives a threat if she is showing signs of fearfulness. But the dog is being true and honest; she is behaving in a way that seems entirely rational and proportionate to her.

I have claimed I hold an irrational fear of flying, and I did believe it to be irrational. I am a rational person; I know the (rough) statistics on how safe it is to fly. I know what the noises are as the landing gear raises and lowers. I understand how turbulence works, and how the physics keep the plane in the sky. Knowing these things didn't help me not be afraid, so I labelled it as irrational. Then, one day, I was sat on a plane that had been grounded for two hours with us all on board, and with a frantic Spanish lady next to me, who didn't understand what was going on - French air traffic control (quelle surprise). I was travelling alone, so had no-one to squeeze my hand. What I did have was a book, "Dealing with fears and phobias", which I was making my way through. Strangely, it didn't help me at all directly, but as I was reading it, I had a sudden epiphany that the thing I was afraid of was a lack of control. I didn't know anything about psychology at the time, but looking back, I know that the trigger that had started my fear of flying wasn't anything to do with flying at all; it was a bad relationship I was in, where I felt I lacked control. Again, in hindsight, I realised that my fear became profoundly worse during another turbulent time in my life, where again, I felt a terrible lack of control. Since then, the fear had become so bad that I was afraid of the fearfulness itself; I would feel physically ill simply booking a flight, or even watching planes pass overhead, even if I had no travel planned. It might be disproportionate to someone who is not afraid of flying, and I may never have realised what triggered the fear in the first place, but "irrational"? No, I no longer believe it to be that. And even understanding the trigger that caused it, and knowing that is no longer a part of my life, the classical conditioning has been done, and it's an uphill struggle to change a deep emotional response to a trigger.
 
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