So tonight I gave my toddler crack cocaine...

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Carbon is a ball addict. Or more specifically an 'anything that rolls quickly and squeaks" addict. I know this. I've not used balls with him a lot, but when I do it's always a question of, "Am I giving him something he loves because it would be mean to deprive him?" or "Am I essentially giving a toddler crack cocaine?" Meaning even 'a little' may be a really, really bad idea.

For 10 days we've not played with the ball at all. I've been doing the dummy retrieve game @Beanwood taught us last weekend, a lot of SD training which he loves and plenty of fun sniffy walks around the holiday park we live in at the moment. Today I did all that and he was still full of beans. Not nervous, just not content to watch me work on the computer any more. I had to do a last bit of work and he climbed up on the sofa, then climbed up on the back of the sofa and draped himself over my head. That was a new one. Benson must be giving pointers.

I was grumpy, I was tired and I wanted something easy to wear him out. So I grabbed the two tennis balls to play his drop it game. I turned on a podcast so I wouldn't get bored out of my skull (I'm good for about 5 minutes of ball throwing normally) and chucked a ball at him for 30 minutes.

The end result was that my sweet Spanish gentleman boy got very hyped up. After 30 minutes of play, he was exponentially MORE wired than when we'd started. In fact, he made 'when we started' look like he'd been about ready to doze off. His eyes were wild, he was panting, he couldn't lay down. He SAW me put the balls away, but still frantically ran around the house looking for them.

It reminded me of when Brogan used to have panic attacks after hearing gunshot.

I lay down on the floor with him and petted him while he panted. It took 45 minutes for him to calm down and notice me. Another 15 minutes before I got him to start gently playing with me and another (non-ball) toy.

I felt like the devil for having done that to him.

What I no longer have any doubt about: "Am I giving him something he loves because it would be mean to deprive him?" or "Am I essentially giving a toddler crack cocaine?" The answer is pretty clear. The balls are getting put away. Maybe someday they can come out again to be used in another safer way, but I doubt it.

 

[HAH]

I hope Carbón can overcome the ball habit given time and support. But most of all, I LOVE the title and I love your writing.

Also - you’re not the devil for giving him a ball (or crack cocaine). You sometimes have to try these things to assess the reaction, and it’s not damaging beyond the hefty panting and on-the-ceiling arousal.

I wonder if some balls are more boring than others? If you could start him on an (e.g.) ball of paper? Would that have less appeal? Anyhoo, you’re doing wonderfully and the title was a beaut - brava

 

[Candy]

GGJ can be like this around ball games. I am learning (but have not yet totally learned) how to manage this without totally depriving her of something she loves so much. Advice/ pointers would be appreciated.

 

[Plum's mum]

That’s a tough one @Emily_Babbelhund, it sounds very distressing for you both.

Plum loves balls too and it seems as if she goes into another zone when we’re playing (front paw lifted, ears pricked, eyes on the ball, a fidgety body) but she is able to ‘come down’ pretty quickly when we stop playing.

Do you think it would have been the same had you played for less time? If I’m playing with Plum in the garden I rarely play for more than 5 minutes.
And would it be possible to let him keep the ball and give it up in his own time, or do you think he would remain just as wired?

A long time ago, on the other site, I asked for advice after a dispiriting and stressful trip to the park where Plum tried to chase every single ball she saw and went crazy up against the fence of the tennis court. I could hardly contain her.

So I practised and practised the advice I got then, which was about teaching her some control around balls. So I would juggle the ball in my hands throwing from one to the other getting her to sit and wait and not jump or intervene and then I’d throw it for her as a reward for calmness.

I’d gently touch her collar so she’d know not to run after a ball and I’d throw it while touching her, then I’d release her after a few seconds. Gradually I built this up until I didn’t have to hold her but I could just say “wait,” throw the ball and release her after increasing lengths of waiting.

And I did LAT work around kids playing football, starting far away and getting nearer and nearer.

I think she loved the training and she improved so much. The day I was able to call her back as she started running after another ball felt like manna from heaven.

Now she still is very excited by balls and still enters the zone but she rarely chases another ball unless it rolls right under her nose and even then I can stop her.

And if we’re playing ball I play games with her rather than just repeated throws so I ask her to wait before she can fetch, sometimes I let her drop it at my feet, sometimes I ask her to deliver it to my hand, sometimes I ask her to take the ball gently back out of my hand by asking her to “hold.”
I let her carry it home if she wants so we don’t have a fight about giving it up because she drops it when we get indoors and then I put it away.

You may do all these things so apologies for the long reply but if not it may be worth trying a few so games with balls are more testing and inventive rather than just throwing?

 

[Boogie]

Zaba is a ball addict too, so we just use it for swimming. He does look forward to it and gets excited at his swimming spots, but it never comes out of the pocket otherwise.

 

[Anne123]

Finn loves his balls too. When I let him play with it I let him carry his own ball while on leash. At a field we play with it and let him retrieve the ball many times, certainly not for half an hour. At the most for 15 min. Then he has to carry his ball back to the house where he knows where I put it until next time...

 

[edzbird]

Mine are mad about balls, Meg more so. I do play with them most days but they are restricted to a certain number of throws rather than a time limit. 5 at this spot, 10 at that spot, maximum 20 in a special field. I sometimes incorporate recall practice, blowing the whistle as they are running towards me. No balls in the house anymore, too much destruction ensued.

 

[Joy]

I think the advice from @Plum's mum is really good. A little while ago I worked with a ball- crazy Retriever and we did different things with the ball, like hiding it in undergrowth for the dog to find. Then the reward for finding it was a throw of the ball to chase.

 

[SteffiS]

Toffee is a ball addict too, I have to carry two otherwise he will never drop the one he’s got in case he never gets it back . I’m working really hard on this ever since OH got teeth in his fingers when Toffee had a 'ball panic' moment.

However I’ve found the safestix is a better toy as he doesn’t have the same obsession and will bring it back quite happily and give it up at the end of the play time.

Although my daughter was throwing the safestix on our walk this week and managed to throw it really hard into the back of my neck, luckily I had my hood up as it was raining, otherwise I wouldn’t have been surprised if she’d knocked me out - not quite so safe in my daughter’s hands!

 

[Beanwood]

This is an interesting blog written by Sarah Stremming "The Cognitive Canine" . Whilst it doesn't really offer a solution, she offers a thoughtful insight into canine (and human behaviours) ...and the problem with Fetch.

The trouble with Fetch

 

[Aitch]

Alex loves the ball too. He is one who, like Carbon, would carry on with the ball until he drops. I tend to use it as a high value reward now. A few throws as a reward and then some calming games. Moderation in all things means he gets what he loves and I get a calm Alex afterwards.

 

[kateincornwall]

Sam was passionate about his tennis balls but they never came out indoors . I kept one in my pocket , he knew it was there but also I limited the play with them and then back in the pocket and I would say " Ball gone " . Likewise Reubs loves his orange kong on a rope but I limit this too and again never in the house .

 

[Stacia]

Not a good idea to throw a ball for that long, bad for the dog's joints. Rourke is a bit too focussed on balls, as he has the ball has a reward, thrown down in front of him, not to chase, then he is allowed the pleasure of 'mouthing it' for a short time and I take it away. If he sees a squirrel, or sheep, or car coming down the lane, or a person, he runs back to me for the ball, this can get to be a pain!

Your could hide a couple of tennis balls in long grass, even half bury them and send Carbon to find them, that tires them out

 

[FayRose]

Very thought provoking article @Beanwood , thank you for that link.

 

[Naya]

As most of you know, Harley loves her balls too. It took quite a while when she was little, but she doesn’t chase after any other dogs ball (unless we are on a forum walk, which even then is rare). She has chuckit balls as she doesn’t particularly like tennis balls. When on a walk she is happy to carry it for the most part, and have it thrown occasionally. She also has no problem with other dogs taking her ball, she follows them until they drop it . When I throw it, I hide another one in the long grass for her to find. She loves this game.

 

[Emily]

Although my daughter was throwing the safestix on our walk this week and managed to throw it really hard into the back of my neck, luckily I had my hood up as it was raining, otherwise I wouldn’t have been surprised if she’d knocked me out - not quite so safe in my daughter’s hands!

that was definitely a laugh out loud moment! Especially because the safestix looks so much like... well, you know

 

[Emily]

Ella loves her red Kong balls. She'd continue to chase them forever if we allowed it. However, after a few throws, she's more than happy to find a comfy spot and lie down with her ball so we don't find it to be too much of an issue.

What happens if you just leave the ball and don't pick it back up? Does he constantly push for you to throw it?

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I wonder if some balls are more boring than others? If you could start him on an (e.g.) ball of paper? Would that have less appeal?

The Kong tennis balls with squeaker are what I refer to as doggie crack cocaine. Regular tennis balls are just slightly less exciting. Our SD trainer also suggested doing some work with a ball of paper, that it wouldn't set him off so much. I had been trying to do some 'leave it' work with the Kong balls and his trainer said I was asking university level work of a kindergartener. That's when she suggested the paper balls instead.

Do you think it would have been the same had you played for less time? If I’m playing with Plum in the garden I rarely play for more than 5 minutes.
And would it be possible to let him keep the ball and give it up in his own time, or do you think he would remain just as wired?

Even a 5 minute game leaves him amped up for some time. Not as long as yesterday, but still 30 minutes or so. We tried mixing in a few minutes of ball work combined with some more calming behaviours, but as yet his focus is blown out of the water after the ball.

He'll never give up the ball of his own volition. If I let him have it he will chew on it like bubble gum until it pops, then chew off the fuzz. I've not let it go further than that, but I suspect he'd just chew it until it was tiny bits...or swallow the bits.

So I practised and practised the advice I got then, which was about teaching her some control around balls. So I would juggle the ball in my hands throwing from one to the other getting her to sit and wait and not jump or intervene and then I’d throw it for her as a reward for calmness.

This is why I was working with him on 'leave it' with balls. I still think this has a lot of value, but will tone it down by trying a ball of paper instead of the tennis ball.

And I did LAT work around kids playing football, starting far away and getting nearer and nearer.

We've been working on this (LAT with balls) since last summer. He actually is much better, though he still has his moments of sheer craziness!

Zaba is a ball addict too, so we just use it for swimming.

I can see doing this with Carbon this summer on the Danube. A ball is the only thing that gets him into the water, plus I don't have to worry about joint issues if he's retrieving in water. The reason I stopped last summer was that he'd retrieve 4-5 times, then he'd just run out of the water and wouldn't let me have the ball back. But we've both come a long way since last summer, so maybe I'll be able to manage that better.

Then he has to carry his ball back to the house where he knows where I put it until next time...

Heh, heh...Finn is much more polite than Carbon. If I take a ball to the beach, he does well carrying it there, but then he never wants to leave/give up the ball, so he will drop the ball then flop on top of it and stare at me. "I'm a goose and I've laid my golden (Kong ball) egg and I'm not leaving! Wah!"

I sometimes incorporate recall practice, blowing the whistle as they are running towards me.

Yes, we do this too. That was the positive side of the ball, it gave lots of opportunities to practice other behaviours like leave it, recall, wait, watch me, etc.

Then the reward for finding it was a throw of the ball to chase.

I was trying this as I was trying to find non-food rewards and honestly it just made him nuts. Even throwing a dummy seems to be too much for him at the moment.

However I’ve found the safestix is a better toy as he doesn’t have the same obsession and will bring it back quite happily and give it up at the end of the play time.

His SD trainer recommended this. Next time I'm near a Pets at Home I'll have a look for one. Though if I get one, I'll have to learn to live with the embarrassment. They're popular enough here that I don't think anyone will think much of it, but in Germany - land of the ubiquitous sex shop - walking around with one of those things is going to kill me.

Not a good idea to throw a ball for that long, bad for the dog's joints.

We were playing the drop it game indoors on carpeting, so he's not building up any speed (I'm actually rolling, not throwing) but I agree that I worry about elbow joints and a lot of ball chasing.

What happens if you just leave the ball and don't pick it back up? Does he constantly push for you to throw it?

He'll just chew it to bits. He never asks me to throw it, in fact he'd actually rather I just gave it to him to destroy. That's why I had to start the leave it game with two balls, as he wouldn't drop the first ball unless there was another ball coming his way.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

I had an interesting conversation with @Beanwood about the different types of Labradors and what flips their switch from a genetic/breeding standpoint. That for example Labs in the US are different from those in the UK in some part because gun dog work (the way hunts are carried out) is so different.

That got us thinking about how hunting is done in Spain and how that could have affected what Carbon could have been bred for - so what flips his switch. I know nothing about what Labs are used for in Spain, but all the other hunting dogs I know (galgos, podencos, bodegueros) are used for hunting small game like rabbits. If Labradors are used in a similar way, it makes total sense that Carbon is switched on by things that move quickly and squeak.

This made me think that unlike Reuben and Cassie for example, Carbon never ever looks even slightly tempted by running after birds at the beach. All his focus is on the ground.

So he may be even more genetically programmed than most UK/US Labs to LOVE squeaky tennis balls!

 

[snowbunny]

That got us thinking about how hunting is done in Spain and how that could have affected what Carbon could have been bred for - so what flips his switch. I know nothing about what Labs are used for in Spain, but all the other hunting dogs I know (galgos, podencos, bodegueros) are used for hunting small game like rabbits. If Labradors are used in a similar way, it makes total sense that Carbon is switched on by things that move quickly and squeak.

Working Tests and Field Trials are very similar to the UK format, far less like the US format. It's just nowhere near as popular in Spain as it is elsewhere in the world. I don't see people hunting with Labradors at all. However, they are very popular in conformation shows. I think they are seen more as a pet/show dog than they are a "proper" hunting dog. The hunters (at least round here) want more of a "jack of all trades".

I don't think Carbón being switched on by fast moving squeaky things is anything to do with his Spanish heritage. You would be hard-pressed to find a Lab who was more switched on by the chase of a critter than Shadow, and he's Scottish by parentage