Still trouble with jumping...and question about crating

[alschwahn]

Aspen is 16 months and we are still struggling with jumping on people. The only place he doesn't do it is at the vet and I am guessing it is because he is a little anxious and unsure.

I have tried scattering, keeping on a leash until no more jumping, and ignoring or turning away. I even ask guests not to engage with Aspen until he settles but he takes a really long time to do that and he will jump randomly because he is so excited.

I try to tell people to get down to his level because then he doesn't jump, but that's not really fair to ask.

I am wondering if I am finding it challenging because he is always in his crate when we go somewhere, so rather than greeting us at the door, I let him out of his kennel. When I do let him out, he stays sitting with the door open until he hears his "OK" cue to leave. He is pretty wild when he leaves his kennel and will try to jump on us. He will sit if I tell him to, but that's ONLY if it is the two of us. He is really good all around but he is still pretty energetic when there's others around.

I'm really sad about it because everyone thinks he is naughty and that he "jumps because he thinks everything is a game and that he is the alpha" which I know is not true! I have gotten "Oh, get a shock collar." and "Knee him in the chest!" No thanks.

I feel upset about his jumping because he scratches and hurts, and he left a HUGE bruise/scratch on Justen's mom's leg because he jumped on her when he saw her.

I know I have asked for help on this but PLEASE give me all the ways you trained your dog not to jump! And remind me that it's a work in progress! I really want to work on this bad habit so he can be a good example for a future puppy, and so he doesn't accidentally hurt someone. I wish I would have trained sitting when guests arrive as a really young pup but he is my first dog so I didn't even think of that. We let him jump because it was "fine" and didn't hurt for a 15 pound puppy but it isn't okay anymore at 65 pounds.

 

[VanillaBean]

Try not to be sad about it, I know easier said than done. I

We had this with Vanilla. We had similar advise, but also to turn around etc. I also don't let Vanilla say hello to one of OH colleagues as he did the knee thing. I was just not quick enough at the time, but he also took us by full surprise as he has a Lab too.

Ended up with asking friends to help us. We used C&T, on leash and distance. We used high value treats, like chicken/beef etc.
Approach and as soon as I could see she was about to lift her front paws, I would C&T. Her feet never left the floor, but I did have distance to play with. After a while made the distance shorter. Once I was happy with that, I added a cue 'Paws on floor'. By the time we got to the front, so to speak, she would want to lift her feet but turn to me for a treat. She would also by default sit in front of the person, while her front feet would be trying really hard not to lift.

Once we had that it was out into the wide world. Did the same, used distance. Bit it did make it easier given she already had this associated. Now if however it came to the point of quick thinking, I would Drop part of the lead to allow my foot to stand on it. So if she did then decide to try and jump she would not be able to. Did not force her down, ie: lead was still loose and she kept her posture, but was unable to jump. I also would ask the person to ignore her and keep on walking. That is the hardest part as people take offence. I would say see you in six months and I will let her jump on you then too....

Now when she runs up to people she knows she will sit in front of them by default. But only once I have said it is OK to say hello. This then allows me to manage the environment.
I think from memory it took us about a month to train this. As we had allowed stupidly as I think most of us do let a tiny little pup jump up to say hello.

You will get there...

 

[Joy]

I've been working with someone for 6 months to help them train their Flatcoat Retriever to lie down instead of jumping up. We've been gradually adding a range of places and people and J's owner called me today to say that she has met two people he would normally jump up and that he went straight to a sit, uncued, and then lay down on cue and remained there while they had a conversation. She was delighted, as was I. So yes it is possible to train but I think you need to set up training scenarios rather than reacting when Aspen jumps.

This is what we did. We started in an outdoor spot where there were no other people or dogs. S ( the dog's owner) had J (dog) on lead. She asked him to lie down and I approached quietly, side on, not speaking or looking at him. S fed him liver cake. I stopped at a distance. We repeated that many times ( giving him breaks in between to go and sniff) and gradually I came nearer. If he did get up, or jump up, I immediately moved away without saying anything or making eye contact. S simply told him to lie down again.
Over a period of weeks we got to the stage where I could speak to S, run past, approach head on and eventually touch J. (I started with a touch to the chest). Now I can walk atraight up, greet J with a stroke and a spoken hello and stand talking to S.
Then we repeated it all from the beginning using my adult son as a stooge.
Then we moved to outside Pets at Home. I stopped people from approaching J while S fed him while he was in a down. He made the association between food and people walking past. Then I picked people who looked kind and doggy and asked them to help. The main thing was to stop people saying 'no' or 'get down' if he jumped up but just to move away. Some dogs see any talking, even shouting, as a reward.
Then we repeated it all on the sea front.
Then we repeated it all outside Morrisons.

This dog is four years old and has practised jumping up at people his entire life but by following a structured plan for a number of months we have basically cracked it. J can now handle not jumping up by sitiing down, but initially I felt a down was a more secure position.

So -planned sessions with someone to act as stooge who will comply with your instructions.

 

[Atemas]

We asked visitors to turn their backs on Red. She would jump. She is desperate to say hello to everyone so she didn’t like people turning away from her. Gradually she stopped and you could see her thinking ‘I have to sit, then they’ll say hello and fuss me’. She had a phase of doing a half jump half sit. Now interestingly, she will sit for the people who turned their backs on her and be calm. However, a friend who constantly gave her attention when she was jumping or would turn her back on my request but laugh loudly making fun of it - grrr - Red still jumps up at her badly. Red is nearly 22 months and she has slowly got better. We still get very occasional jumping but she just needs reminding to sit. It’s taken a long time but I knew we had to crack it as my mum is 96 and I can't let an enthusiastic dog jump near her.

 

[snowbunny]

So, I'm going back to my really boring mantra: you have to deal with the emotions, not simply focus on the behaviour. What is the behaviour achieving for the dog? We need to find something that offers the same result, but that fits in with what we find acceptable. Normally with jumping-up dog greetings, it's less about wanting to get in the person's face and more about needing to release the excitement. If we ask for a sit or other behaviour in this situation, we're asking a lot of the dog and the chances are they won't be able to do it, or hold it if they do. We need to give them something else to do that lowers their arousal in the same way that jumping up expends a little of that energy. Think how you felt as a child when you were so excited about something and were then asked to sit still without fidgeting. Do you remember how hard it was? Sniffing and chewing are great for this because the very action lowers the dog's arousal and so you end up classically conditioning the dog that the approach of a person = calmness. There's a school of thought that if you simply focus on the behaviour and use a conflicting behaviour that doesn't address the underlying emotions, it can lead to frustration which can be expressed later on as reactivity.

The practicalities of using techniques to lower the dog's arousal can be a little more difficult and often need practicing out of context before you bring them into the highly arousing environment, so that both you and the dog understand how to play the game.

 

[Jen]

I’m going to be controversial and admit I let Stanley jump up.

He doesn’t do it out and about, only if someone comes to our house. My thoughts are it’s my house, Stanleys my dog.. don’t want to be jumped up at.. don’t come!

 

[snowbunny]

I’m going to be controversial and admit I let Stanley jump up.

And there's nothing wrong with that! If it's not hurting you or others, then enjoy it, I say. I encourage my dogs to jump up at times, and teach them how to do it "properly". Squidge, bless her, doesn't quite have this idea yet and tends to pogo in front of me. She got that from her dad, who was doing the same thing when I first met him - at about the same age that she is now!
No-one else can dictate what is acceptable behaviour in your dog. You want to feed them from your plate? Your prerogative. Want them to sit on your lap, go nuts. Lick your face, whatever. The idea that all dogs and owners should have the same criteria about what is right and wrong is just silly. You enjoy your Tigger

 

[Aitch]

Amber is the only one of mine that jumps up and I allow her to do it. She needs to do it so if someone comes to the house I warn them. If they can't cope with it they can always leave.

 

[Plum's mum]

Plum rarely jumps up now but one of my neighbours adores her and has always encouraged her to jump up at her for kisses and cuddles. Plum is always so happy to see her and does a little jump. I've never tried to stop it because my neighbour doesn't mind and it hasn't encouraged Plum to do it with anyone else.

 

[Atemas]

If we ask for a sit or other behaviour in this situation, we're asking a lot of the dog and the chances are they won't be able to do it, or hold it if they do.

...but the chances are they can do it and can hold it or maybe we have just been lucky in that respect. When there are elderly parents and young children to consider, I am pleased my two dogs will sit and wait to be greeted.

 

[snowbunny]

maybe we have just been lucky in that respect.

Sounds like you haven’t had the same level of arousal as I’ve dealt with

In any event, the point remains: if you are simply dealing with a behaviour by using a conflicting behaviour and not addressing the emotion that is causing that behaviour, you run the risk of it leaking out and creating fallout elsewhere. It’s the same reason why punishing for reactive behaviours is a bad idea.
It’s not a certainty and training a sit might be enough to calm some dogs enough to resolve the emotional state, but if you’re not certain of that outcome you run the risk of introducing frustration or conflict in the dog, and that’s sub-optimal training at best.

 

[Joy]

If sniffing and chewing are enough to calm a dog and prevent him jumping up that's good. However in some cases this doesn't work. The dog I talk about above, J, simply wanted to launch himself at everyone. (He was in a class I attended with Molly a couple of years ago.) The response he used to get was shrieking from the jumped on and shouting from his owner - and clearly he found this rewarding/ satisfying in some way. I would say that the approach of training a 'down' is not entirely operant conditioning but is also changing the dog's emotional state / arousal level. By not getting the shrieking and shouting, the adrenalin is bound to fall, making it easier for the dog to comply with the 'down'. Then the dog gets food and learns to make new associations. People passing by means time to switch off. In J's case when he sees me now he is waggy and open-mouthed smiling and when in a sit leans into me, so he's not shut down.
I don't really think there's a big difference between training a calm response to seeing people and training a calm response to a noisy motorbike.
I know dogs and children aren't the same, but there are similarities. I love my sister's grandchildren to bits because we can have a wild, energetic time outside but then they sit politely at the dinner table and have nice manners. I think I want the same from a dog - one who runs and jumps and plays but who can also be calm.

 

[Beanwood]

This is a really interesting discussion and admit with Romeo I became completely unstuck. I am used to dealing with jumping up, indeed Benson still does..at a distance. He is though able to very quickly calm down, and the pongo'ing is usually because I have excited him, or he is simply full of gorgeous chocolate happiness.

So back to Romeo. When he became aroused, this happened very quickly. I didn't even try to calm him, as it just wouldn't happen, so I just made sure I had a long tuggy and redirected his energy towards that. I played quietly, then when he chose to drop the tuggy I praised him (quietly, no clicker..) and dropped a few treats under his nose. Then just kept feeding him on the ground until he calmed.

 

[Joy]

I think it makes a difference who your dog is jumping up at. In J's case it wasn't at the family at home but at strangers in the street - not aggressive at all, but people could interpret it as that. If you can't predict when it's going to happen that makes it very difficult. With J I tried to add distractions so slowly/ gradually (initially we were on the Downs and I was the only other person remotely near) that it wasn't a case of calming him down but preventing him from getting wound up in the first place.

 

[snowbunny]

If sniffing and chewing are enough to calm a dog and prevent him jumping up that's good. However in some cases this doesn't work.

You're absolutely right - eating when in a highly aroused state is unlikely. But it's a behaviour that can be learnt just like any other behaviour and is self soothing when they do it. If you can teach your dog to lie down when he's aroused, you can certainly teach him to eat when he's aroused, and a lot more easily. You teach it by starting off in low arousal settings and gradually increase the arousal. So many people are very quick to write off eating as something "my dog won't do when...." without considering that it's a behaviour like any other that can be trained, and, because food is a primary reinforcer and calmness is also reinforcing (or, rather, being over-aroused is unpleasant), you're already on the road to a calmer dog by teaching him to do this, as opposed to potentially being on a different path by teaching a different conflicting behaviour that may not address the arousal and may, in fact, cause fallout.

As I said, teaching a sit or a down may also calm the dog, and it's very much about looking at the dog in front of you. I am just in the mode right now of questioning all of these "conventional" methods as I see a lot of scope for them causing other problems. We need to pick them apart and ask why they work and are they the best way, knowing what we know. The way you are approaching it in your description above is perfect because you're training that calmness in a very methodical way. So often, people just tell their jumping dog to "sit, sit, sit, he knows how to sit, why isn't he sitting?!", the dog can't cope, and everyone gets horribly frustrated by the whole thing.

As for turning your attention away, that's all well and good, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm trying to move away from negative punishment and instead communicate to the dog what we DO want. So raise your rate of reinforcement for feet being on the floor to ridiculous levels (and, remember, eating is calming, so you'll lower the arousal by doing this) and in doing so, give the dog the information: THIS is what I want. Dogs who are over-aroused aren't in a place where they're going to be learning effectively, so you have to first off manage that arousal level. Once you manage the arousal, the behaviour will deal with itself.

 

[snowbunny]

So back to Romeo. When he became aroused, this happened very quickly. I didn't even try to calm him, as it just wouldn't happen, so I just made sure I had a long tuggy and redirected his energy towards that. I played quietly, then when he chose to drop the tuggy I praised him (quietly, no clicker..) and dropped a few treats under his nose. Then just kept feeding him on the ground until he calmed.

This is a great tactic for lowering a dog's arousal. If he'll play when he's like this, you can direct him onto the tuggy and slowly lower the energy levels. Again, it's something you can practice outside of the trigger times; play tug and modulate the arousal by slowly cranking it up and then back down again. Your dog will learn to be able to alter his arousal levels by doing this. You have to start off by matching your dog's energy level - think of it on a scale of 1-10 and then just work up or down one point at a time to figure out how best to manipulate it. The more you do it, the more fluent he will become at adjusting his arousal levels to match yours.

 

[Jen]

I think they just “know” as well.

Stanley has never jumped up at my 90 year old Nanna or our 2 year old newphew. He goes straight into calm goodboy mode around them. Has done since he was a baby!

 

[Lab_adore]

Maxx too, he hasnt jumped on my 92 year old dad for months but he does jump at most people I'm ashamed to say. It's getting better very slowly

 

[Beanwood]

Again, it's something you can practice outside of the trigger times; play tug and modulate the arousal by slowly cranking it up and then back down again.

Very interesting! Once we twigged Romeo had real difficulty with arousal, we worked on finding a game he enjoyed to escalate his excitement, but in a more controlled way. I felt we needed to explore his arousal flexibility. His rather labile arousal did worry me a bit. I agree though it was more about understanding his emotional state and working out what was triggered his intense spikes in arousal.

He adored playing tuggy, and would rummage around in the dog room and bring me one to play with! We would play tuggy, the instant he stopped, ( or even loosened his grip slightly..) I would treat stream tiny treats quietly praising him. Everything I did was slow, even playing we were quiet. He was starting to do really well. Wish I could have kept him a few more weeks really. @snowbunny, I think you would have found him fascinating to work with!

Outside though he did struggle a bit, so we worked more on 1-1 or Romeo out with Bramble who is super calm. We did find out on the last day that Romeo didn't have many interactions with people or other dogs, outside to him meant being left all day in a garden. I guess having Casper, we have always worked with arousal and emotional scales, and if they rise to high out on a walk...then we have a couple of decompression days. Yesterday our first full day without Romeo, I treated us all to a quiet day, a short goofy walk in the paddock plus rotating sofa cuddles!

 

[Jacqui-S]

rotating sofa cuddles!

Good for bipeds and quadrupeds alike x