The Labraventures of Carbón, Spanish (ex-) foster dog extraordinaire

Emily_Babbelhund

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
Location
Regensburg, Germany
Boogie said:
If you do the second you’re not bribing. Once it becomes a habit the rewards aren’t needed as much - just now and again, but it can take ages to become a habit - often months. And the fact that you are often in different venues will mean rewards are needed more too.
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I still think I'm a borderline briber. Here's the thing, I WANT him to keep his head up and look at me instead of head down sniffing dropped food on the ground. He now does this 80% of the time (vs about 5% when we started back in July), but with a stare at me that clearly says, "WHERE IS MY COOKIE?". However, it's the behaviour I want: looking at me with head up. So am rewarding him for the behaviour I want, or is he food mugging me?

If I just say "Good boy" and continue on walking as he is looking at me, he will carry on walking for a while, but eventually (5 seconds or so) he'll drop that head down and start scavenging again. I've been able to space to maybe 10-30 seconds on good days, but not been able to fade it out more than that.

I do have a feeling he simply has my number for the quantity of treats. During our travels when I was taking so many photos and had my hands full with the camera, he'd go along with me on a nice heel with far fewer treats. So maybe I've created a cookie monster.

Sigh...this is what happens when you try to train a dog who is smarter than you are. :rolleyes:
 
Boogie

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
Emily_Babbelhund said:
I still think I'm a borderline briber. Here's the thing, I WANT him to keep his head up and look at me instead of head down sniffing dropped food on the ground. He now does this 80% of the time (vs about 5% when we started back in July), but with a stare at me that clearly says, "WHERE IS MY COOKIE?". However, it's the behaviour I want: looking at me with head up. So am rewarding him for the behaviour I want, or is he food mugging me?

If I just say "Good boy" and continue on walking as he is looking at me, he will carry on walking for a while, but eventually (5 seconds or so) he'll drop that head down and start scavenging again. I've been able to space to maybe 10-30 seconds on good days, but not been able to fade it out more than that.
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My supervisor calls it ‘needing extra support’ when they are in more challenging surroundings. When they need the support of treats they get it and when they don’t I still treat but only now and again.

I have tasty treats and put them right on his nose when it gets really difficult. Sometimes I put the tasty treat on his nose then, after we have passed the distraction, just feed kibble! But other times he gets the nice fishy stuff. But, if he needs the support, he gets it. I never show him the food ‘tho - unless it’s a ‘treat on nose’ time (these are getting rarer.) Of course, he knows the treats are there in my pocket, because they always are.

:)
 
snowbunny

snowbunny

Location
Andorra and Spain
There's a big difference between management and training. Sometimes, we just have to stick a sausage on their nose and get them past something. Remember how in the early days of any training we show them how it's done (often with a lure)? Well, in this particular environment, you're back in "the early days of training". That's all. As long as you have a plan to progress, management is a perfectly acceptable part of that plan.

@Aitch great news! I'm sure it'll all be absolutely fine, but until you get the definitive answer, you will be wondering.
 
snowbunny

snowbunny

Location
Andorra and Spain
Emily_Babbelhund said:
If I just say "Good boy" and continue on walking as he is looking at me, he will carry on walking for a while, but eventually (5 seconds or so) he'll drop that head down and start scavenging again. I've been able to space to maybe 10-30 seconds on good days, but not been able to fade it out more than that.
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If I remember, I'll take some real world video of me walking with Squidge tomorrow. She is almost constantly looking up at me, waiting for her next treat. She gets them, and a lot. Walking by me is really, really tough for her, so I've made sure to pay in to that. I choose not to look at her staring as a demand or begging for food, but as her understanding she's getting the behaviour I'm after right, and that she is due her reinforcer.
If Carbón drops his head after five seconds, then you need to feed at four seconds. And two seconds. And one second. And sometimes five seconds. But he is telling you how long he can go; you just need to listen :)
Remember the Erlenmeyer flask analogy? The more you pay in in the early stages, the more the behaviour with "stick" and the less reinforcement you will need to keep it topped up later on.
 
Selina27

Selina27

Location
Herefordshire, UK
snowbunny said:
I choose not to look at her staring as a demand or begging for food, but as her understanding she's getting the behaviour I'm after right, and that she is due her reinforcer.
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I think that's brilliant :clap:
snowbunny said:
The more you pay in in the early stages, the more the behaviour with "stick" and the less reinforcement you will need to keep it topped up later on.
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That's well worth remembering, I realise that one area I could really have improved my training with Cassie is to have used higher value rewards/more frequently/for longer. It's all ok, but it's definitely something I've learnt.
 
Emily_Babbelhund

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
Location
Regensburg, Germany
Thank you so much, @snowbunny and @Boogie for helping to get me in a different mindset about the rewards and what is normal when training at Carbon's mental age, which I think due to his time in a box at perrera, is younger than his actual age (which is also unknown).

Old habits die hard in my case and it has been difficult to think of Carbon's incredibly persistent stare as anything but mugging on his part and lack of control on mine. I DO mind being mugged, but of course I don't mind at all rewarding him for the behaviours I'm asking of him! As I seem to have a negative visceral reaction to what I've viewed as 'mugging', I'll need to keep recalibrating (thanks @RosieC for such a useful concept) how I view his actions and how it affects my own reactions.

And keep checking in here with the experts. :nod:

I also tend to forget that training Brogan and Duncan was a completely different thing not only because of the breed differences, but because of environment. I am asking Carbon to be consistent in wildly different environments from day to day, where my Rottie boys had a stable home, regular daily home training sessions and 1-3 group classes per week for the first two years of their lives. New behaviours were learned in the home, then in different rooms in my home, then in the back garden, then in front of the house, then at the park,etc. It was all very steady and progressive.

Carbon gets asked to do things in a public square, at the train station, in a train, in a parking garage, in my lawyer's office, in a department store...whatever's going that day. He's also had zippo group classes, which means I tend to jump around on what I'm training without any kind of structure.

Also I've become more aware lately that he is very affected by my own mood. I saw this happen with Brogan as well. When the moving about becomes so drastic (as it has again for Carbon and me in the last two weeks) and nothing but the human is consistent, then whatever the human is feeling just sort of bleeds through to the dog.

To end on a bright note and with the above in mind, I had an excellent meeting with my lawyer yesterday afternoon and...low and behold...the 45 minute walk with Carbon back to our temporary flat went very, very well. Ignored other dogs, passed by beloved wee spots with only a glance and kept head up and tail wagging for the majority of the time.

Of course I also treated the heck out of him which couldn't have hurt either - "Because Aunties Mags and Fiona say we can!" :dug:
 
Cath

Cath

MLF Sales Coordinator
Emily_Babbelhund said:
To end on a bright note and with the above in mind, I had an excellent meeting with my lawyer yesterday afternoon and...low and behold...the 45 minute walk with Carbon back to our temporary flat went very, very well. Ignored other dogs, passed by beloved wee spots with only a glance and kept head up and tail wagging for the majority of the time.
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Great Emily :highfive:
 
Boogie

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
To end on a bright note and with the above in mind, I had an excellent meeting with my lawyer yesterday afternoon and...low and behold...the 45 minute walk with Carbon back to our temporary flat went very, very well. Ignored other dogs, passed by beloved wee spots with only a glance and kept head up and tail wagging for the majority of the time.
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:clap::sheeproll:
 
Emily_Babbelhund

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
Location
Regensburg, Germany
I should also say that yesterday my lawyer cleared me for travel outside of Germany. There are various types of "fictional visas" (what I currently have) and most do not allow travel. When I got my fictional visa back in December, my lawyer had requested the type that allows travel, but the immigration office has been so disorganized lately that he was afraid they'd given me the wrong kind, which is why he raised the alarm.

Yesterday I went in, he personally inspected my fictional visa, and he declared me free as a bird. :happyfeet:

Obviously I really like Germany and would have stayed within the country if needed, but my lawyer assured me that traveling outside the country would not hurt my application for a new temporary residence permit. I quote: "Traveling would only hurt your application if you, say, MURDERED someone WHILE you were traveling."

Can't say he doesn't have a sense of humour. :facepalm:

So my new permit application package is finally ready and will be mailed off to the immigration office on Monday. We've been working on it for nearly three weeks and it is a thing of beauty. Now we sit and wait for an interview, hopefully in the next three weeks, then a decision - hopefully positive - within the next couple of months.

Of course it could all go south and the situation could completely change again by next Wednesday. That's just the way this process goes.

But fingers crossed that the TARDIS will be back in action and Labratour VI (?) will commence in about a month. :happy:

In the meanwhile we're continuing our holiday rental tour around Regensburg, tomorrow moving from the city back out to a village, this time only 15 minutes drive away. All change (again)!
 
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