The Pig meets Shot and Game

[Stacia]

Ah well, I've no way of knowing whether she has or not, so it's immaterial really, she is what she is

She looks great to me!

 

[Stacia]

We have taught a turn whistle, and quartering (after a fashion), which is reliable in no-scent situations - but it doesn’t matter what she is taught, if she is on a scent she is unable to respond to any cues. I can turn my body away, walk in opposite direction, get in car and drive home and there would be no response from the Pig!

I had to smile at you getting in the car and going home and the Pig wouldn't even notice Seriously though, there must be a way, otherwise the country would be awash with gun dogs chasing pheasants and rabbits

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

I had to smile at you getting in the car and going home and the Pig wouldn't even notice Seriously though, there must be a way, otherwise the country would be awash with gun dogs chasing pheasants and rabbits

Exactly! There must be a way, that’s why I am so frustrated that I can’t work out how to fix it! Every other problem I have with the Pig, I am either working on fixing or at least know what I need to do, but this, I am stuck.

Given that with food reinforcers (the pig’s second highest valued things) I have not been able to get her cued behaviours strong enough to break through the ‘hunting red mist’, I suspect I need to deal with the red mist directly, with some sort of habituation to game. I know she will never get bored of game, because it is bred into her, but if I can reduce the over-arousal when she smells a pheasant for example I might be in with a chance of her listening to me. Surely, if I trained with her somewhere full of pheasants every single day (with no hunting allowed) she would get less excited about them? Trouble is, I don’t have a place like that to try it out...

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Tatze will chase but gives up in no time. She used to chase squirrels and, of course, they went up the nearest tree. If a deer flushes up she chases it to the nearest tree - then stops. She seems to have conditioned herself

Well done Tatze. The Pig has almost caught a muntjac once and a few pheasants so she seems to have conditioned herself the other way

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Yes, that is still the advice I give to people whose dogs are hardwired to hunt. I am amazed that you were told 'to chill out about the running off chasing pheasants thing'. Once that becomes a habit, and it can turn into a habit in a very, very short time, it is almost impossible to undo especially with reward based methods.

Perhaps SWMBO has perceived that it is already a habit (despite my best efforts and two years of long line use...) so there was no point in panicking if it happened - but also perhaps she hadn’t realised quite how little control I have when it does happen...not sure!

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Just to add to that. There is a huge difference between hunting a dog in a controlled manner and letting it free hunt. What does that actually mean 'let dogs be dogs'. All of my dogs do exactly what they were bred to do, which is hunting, flushing and retrieving. But if I didn't control the hunting they would be doing that over the hill in Devon while I am in Somerset!

Absolutely! I would love to hunt the Pig in a controlled way as this would be her ultimate rewarding activity and such a bonding experience if we could do it together. But we have only managed to do it hunting dummies so far and that doesn’t float the Pig’s boat when there are small feathery furries about...I am desperate to learn, but not sure how.

 

[HAH]

This came up with squirrels on our (basic, not hunt-specific) course yesterday. One of the people has an 18 month spaniel/collie cross that's murderously obsessive about squirrels, they live in a fairly squirrel-heavy area and were at their wits end that they could never go off lead. It made me think a little of The Pig @Lara_Pigletina, in that it was clearly the unpredictability of the stimulus appearing that was one of the most challenging things for them. The trainer talked about the issues precisely as you have - the aim being to train in situations where you can regulate the distance from the distraction, and the duration of training, playing boundary games where the release cue is key (she kept emphasising how the release cue is everything, because that's where your power lies - the reward for staying on the boundary is to be released off the boundary) and 'arousal up arousal down' games, and sloooowly building so that the dog can follow instructions even at an intense level of arousal. A couple of people were sceptical this was possible in a hunting situation, and her example was Lauren when doing agility - her dog loves agility more than anything in the world, running full tilt and right at the top of her excitement levels - but she still listens because of the training. I'm still wondering if this really can be compared to the hunting drive, but it was interesting to hear.

 

[snowbunny]

I think learning to work (and listen) in arousal is a big part of it, as well as the dog learning to control that arousal. For example, many dogs go completely bonkers with a dummy launcher. They need to learn to be steady to it, and that's built up by slow introductions, working on steadiness to dummies being simply placed on the ground at first, then thrown, later thrown with a starter pistol.... and a hundred steps in between. That's easy to control, though, as it's something that is entirely under our supervision. It's not as easy with game that might pop up in front of you with no notice.
The same thing with agility - it's a very controlled environment so easy to layer arousal and ensure that the dog doesn't get the possibility to self reward.

Working on arousal up - arousal down is valuable, I think, and probably a transferrable skill, but you still have to use management in the real world.

 

[Stacia]

@Lara_Pigletina is there anyone with a rabbit pen in your area? If so, book a SHORT time in there, if longer the dog learns it is a rabbit pen and so behaves in there but not in the wild.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

@Lara_Pigletina is there anyone with a rabbit pen in your area? If so, book a SHORT time in there, if longer the dog learns it is a rabbit pen and so behaves in there but not in the wild.

I will have a google - I think we would need pheasants rather than rabbits...She sees rabbits a lot more often and although wouldn’t be steady to one running away, she copes ok when they are sitting round next to their burrows. Is there such thing as a pheasant pen? What does one do in one - just sitting on lead, rewarding calm, LAT, engagement with me?

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

That's easy to control, though, as it's something that is entirely under our supervision. It's not as easy with game that might pop up in front of you with no notice.
The same thing with agility - it's a very controlled environment so easy to layer arousal and ensure that the dog doesn't get the possibility to self reward.

That’s absolutely the key to the problem - although not easy, I understand how to work on over-arousal to a controllable thing like dummy launcher or agility course. These damn phessies and munties just pop up randomly and infrequently and in a completely uncontrolled way

 

[MellowYellow]

Blimey. I am sooooo lucky with my dogs, both of who stop dead on the whistle, game or no game, and will work for dummies even in a field full of hare and pheasants. Recently they flushed a deer on our morning walk, then both stopped dead when I whistled rather than chasing it. I have worked very hard with the stop whistle, but I also think it is partly the luck of the draw as to what sort of dog you get. Actually, that's not quite true, I searched for a long time with Merlin to find a dog who would be likely to be a keen worker yet steady - and he also takes his cue from Poppy.

I think part of the trouble, if you don't mind me saying this, for those of you who are having trouble with hard-wired hunters, is that you didn't realize to begin with what kind of dog you had on your hands. If you'd known from the first day, you could have started controlled hunting at a very early age, and that would have made all the difference. I do think that once dogs have formed a habit of free hunting, it can be very difficult to deal with. I applaud you all for your efforts, and I completely agree that you have to set realistic expectations and balance loosening the reins from time to time with keeping control.

 

[Stacia]

I will have a google - I think we would need pheasants rather than rabbits...She sees rabbits a lot more often and although wouldn’t be steady to one running away, she copes ok when they are sitting round next to their burrows. Is there such thing as a pheasant pen? What does one do in one - just sitting on lead, rewarding calm, LAT, engagement with me?

There is such a thing as a pheasant pen but not usually for training dogs, especially this time of year! The pheasant pens are where the pheasants are initially raised. A rabbit pen is built specifically to train dogs not to chase them, so a rabbit pen could help you to control the chase instinct.

I have suggested elsewhere to teach the dog a good stop whistle and the moment the dog starts to go, you blow stop. However, on a gundog forum this was not recommended as a stop whistles should be a positive experience, so you use your voice as in 'leave'. I have always used the stop whistle. My present Lab, despite free running, will flush pheasants and immediately return to me; I did have a GSP who would point, flush and chase, but of course that is different as you have time to get into position, tell the dog to flush on command and the immediately sit as the bird goes up.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Blimey. I am sooooo lucky with my dogs, both of who stop dead on the whistle, game or no game, and will work for dummies even in a field full of hare and pheasants. Recently they flushed a deer on our morning walk, then both stopped dead when I whistled rather than chasing it. I have worked very hard with the stop whistle, but I also think it is partly the luck of the draw as to what sort of dog you get. Actually, that's not quite true, I searched for a long time with Merlin to find a dog who would be likely to be a keen worker yet steady - and he also takes his cue from Poppy.

I think part of the trouble, if you don't mind me saying this, for those of you who are having trouble with hard-wired hunters, is that you didn't realize to begin with what kind of dog you had on your hands. If you'd known from the first day, you could have started controlled hunting at a very early age, and that would have made all the difference. I do think that once dogs have formed a habit of free hunting, it can be very difficult to deal with. I applaud you all for your efforts, and I completely agree that you have to set realistic expectations and balance loosening the reins from time to time with keeping control.

Yep absolutely I did not know the Pig’s instincts at the start, I allowed her to free hunt before I realised it was a problem, and we adopted her at 9 months before which she had run amok and learnt god knows how many bad habits I would hope that now I have learnt more about dogs, I would do better if I ever get a puppy in the future...but meanwhile I have to struggle along with my lovely but dreadful Pig!

 

[snowbunny]

I would do better if I ever get a puppy in the future

I read somewhere something along the lines of "we're always training our last dog". It's so true! I did so much better with Squidge from learning by doing wrong with W&S (and also by having a pup with a solid temperament!), but my next one, I'll work on the things I could have done better with her... and the next, and the next, and the next...

 

[Boogie]

Well, I have a puppy every year and it somehow doesn’t work like that for me. I make mistakes with them all - just different ones!

 

[Emily]

My friend always says that you never make the same mistakes again, just different ones

 

[Boogie]

I also get complacent and forget that I haven’t taught some things yet with this puppy and just assume he knows them

.

 

[snowbunny]

Well, I have a puppy every year and it somehow doesn’t work like that for me. I make mistakes with them all - just different ones!

It's probably a little different with your pups because you don't have to live for years with the frustration of the mistakes you made; that stuff comes later in the journey. For example, Willow only started playing keep-away with balls when she was about 18 months, I suppose. And I've never had a delivery to hand with them. I ping-pong between it not bothering me and it bothering me immensely; I fixed the keep-away eventually but the delivery to hand of a Chuckit ball is still only there in a very small subset of circumstances, and they never ever ever deliver their Jumbler balls. So I made sure that Squidge always delivers everything to hand. It's a lot easier to teach that stuff in the first place than try to fix errors you introduced early on. In fact, I often send Squidge to fetch balls that the others have dropped for me to throw, when they've done it too far away.

The problem is, when you're training your last dog with your current one, it's easy to forget that this is a new one with different things that need focussing on! I'm not saying it's always a good thing

 

[Charlie]

Yep absolutely I did not know the Pig’s instincts at the start, I allowed her to free hunt before I realised it was a problem, and we adopted her at 9 months before which she had run amok and learnt god knows how many bad habits I would hope that now I have learnt more about dogs, I would do better if I ever get a puppy in the future...but meanwhile I have to struggle along with my lovely but dreadful Pig!

Me too, adopted Charlie at 9 months and allowed off lead hunting which I hadn't even heard about. He had also been allowed to do this at his foster home so the problem was established. If I knew the little I know now I never would have allowed it. It's like having children, what you do with the first one is not the same as the second, third and fourth. You live and learn which is surely what it's all about. xx