Think using treats is bribery?

[snowbunny]

Kate @kateincornwall found this article and wanted to share it. It's by the wonderful Jean Donaldson (of The Culture Clash fame) and talks a little about why it's wrong to think dogs "should behave" in order to please us. I particularly like the last two quotes.

An Open Letter to Owners Who Think Treats are Bribery

 

[HAH]

Super and short article - thanks @kateincornwall via @snowbunny, I particularly love the quote that crystallises the difference between training children and dogs, and species-appropriate vs non species-appropriate behaviours

 

[Selina27]

species-appropriate vs non species-appropriate behaviours

Thumbs up from me too.

 

[Candy]

Brilliant! I love that. It also backs up an exchange I had with my brother yesterday. He and my sister-in-law have been staying for a couple of days and yesterday we had a lovely walk near the Worth Valley Railway. It was the first walk they've done with Joy and I was keen for them to see just what a Good Girl she is now, also knew that as it was a new walk for her there would be lots of distractions, so I went armed with plenty of cheese,chicken and sausage. Well, I have to say she was just wonderful! She checked in with me frequently, did 'with me' off lead looking up very sweetly at me, and recalled instantly from another dog she had been playing with. I admit it occurred to me that this very good behaviour could in part be due to the fact that she was less confident in a place that she hadn't been to before, so she was choosing to keep fairly close to me. As we were just coming into Keighley towards the end of the walk she did a rapid snaffle of something from the pavement. I asked her to 'leave' and she did, bless her, with some difficulty as it turned out to be a very sticky sweet that had stuck to the roof of her mouth. I gave her a large piece of sausage and lots of fuss and couldn't help saying "Oh, hasn't she been good today?" My brother (who is lovely, by the way, but likes to try to wind me up in a little brotherish way) said "Yes. With bribes!" "REWARDS!" I replied. "Not bribes! If I don't reward her, how does she know when she's doing what I want?" "And anyway, it works" I added. He admitted defeat after some hard stares from his wife and we had a ride back to where we'd left the car on a steam train with free mince pies. A lovely day all round. Think I'm going to forward him that article though....... just so he's in no doubt that Big Sister Knows Best!

 

[Beanwood]

Excellent! Some very interesting blogs on the site too, particularly like the article on predation, and the fact that we as humans often consider this behaviour as unsavoury, needing to be modified or even aggressive, when actually the dog is just doing what is "normal", just like it's normal for us humans not to chase little furries across the garden, or enjoy seeing squirrels hanging in a cute fashion on the bird feeder!

 

[Aitch]

OH was under the impression that I was bribing the dogs at first. He came around when he saw the results and realised how painful life was going to be if he persisted.

 

[Aitch]

Excellent! Some very interesting blogs on the site too, particularly like the article on predation, and the fact that we as humans often consider this behaviour as unsavoury, needing to be modified or even aggressive, when actually the dog is just doing what is "normal", just like it's normal for us humans not to chase little furries across the garden, or enjoy seeing squirrels hanging in a cute fashion on the bird feeder!

I get lots of flak from people when Alex catches and kills rabbits. As far as I'm concerned he is doing what is natural. He is a predator. What do people think predators do?

 

[Cath]

Thanks Kate and Fiona

 

[Selina27]

and the fact that we as humans often consider this behaviour as unsavoury, needing to be modified or even aggressive, when actually the dog is just doing what is "normal",

Yes, totally agree. Even when it comes to poo eating

But when it comes to modification, isn't this what we do with training? I'm just thinking about Cassie and the hunting now, I understand that that is what she is about, and when she truly comes alive. But I would like to just be able to "harness" that and be more in harmony with her. Sometimes for her own safety!

 

[Beanwood]

But when it comes to modification, isn't this what we do with training?

Oh yes....however I think the trick is recognising this is normal behaviour, and not seeing it as something we have to "correct". Having a high drive dog is a challenge, as it is very hard to find anything that trumps this natural and very reinforcing behaviour. Understanding this helps enormously in my training approach and our relationship

 

[Selina27]

Oh yes....however I think the trick is recognising this is normal behaviour, and not seeing it as something we have to "correct". Having a high drive dog is a challenge, as it is very hard to find anything that trumps this natural and very reinforcing behaviour. Understanding this helps enormously in my training approach and our relationship

Ah yes, I get this completely. Such a relief to be told " let her do it".

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

This was good for me to read - not because I use prong collars or any of the other nasties mentioned, but because I've had a very hard time coming to terms with feeling like a human version of a food bancomat/ATM. Never having worked with a Labrador before and not having had a food-obsessed dog in the past, the first three months with Carbon really did feel like it was all about the bribe. I was used to dogs who worked much more for praise instead. I'm just now starting to not only feel ok with the bribe, but recognize it for the powerful advantage it is in training.

 

[Selina27]

I think too that many people don't get the importance of timing and it can very often look to folk who don't have much understanding of +R as if the dog is just being fed willy-nilly whereas in truth they are "working" for their reward.

My sister who I love dearly, is quite sniffy about my use of food with Cassie, I've tried until I'm blue in the face to explain that for Cassie games with her kibble are what reinforces her for being near me -- whereas if she liked a ball or toy I'm sure I wouldn't have to do that!

 

[snowbunny]

I'm just now starting to not only feel ok with the bribe, but recognize it for the powerful advantage it is in training.

It's only a bribe if the dog is performing the behaviour contingent on the reinforcer being visible. That is, if a dog won't sit on cue, but then you get a cookie out and he suddenly responds, that's a bribe. If the dog will sit without seeing the reinforcer, then you have a trained response, which you reinforce with the cookie.

If your dog won't do anything for you if you don't have your treat pouch on, then your treat pouch is a bribe.

That's what differentiates a bribe from a reinforcer: whether your dog will perform the behaviour in the absence of certainty that the reinforcer is available.

 

[snowbunny]

As far as the predation is concerned, I think it's something that people so often find upsetting, and for good reason. I don't think it's OK when dogs are allowed to chase and kill wildlife because "it's what they do". But I absolutely understand when they do, and it's not the dog's fault in the slightest, so it is completely inappropriate to punish them for doing so, just because it doesn't fit in with our ideas of how cuddly Fido should behave. My dogs have had a young hare and a rabbit between them, and it was very upsetting to me on both occasions. Shadow in particular has a very strong prey drive and I have to work on that every time we hit deer season or bunny season to stop him chasing.

We have bred different groups of dogs over the years to naturally stop at different parts of the predation sequence in order to work collaboratively with us (a pointer will search and - er - point at the game without chasing; a terrier will catch and shake a rat to kill it; a retriever has been bred to be more naturally inclined to bring back the game unbruised), but whilst the breed group overall might have these tendencies to stop short of the full sequence, which can then be nurtured through training, the other elements of the sequence haven't been completely erased, and individual dogs will be more inclined to continue it through to completion.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

That's what differentiates a bribe from a reinforcer: whether your dog will perform the behaviour in the absence of certainty that the reinforcer is available.

Mmm... with this definition, then I very well may be using bribes.

I ALWAYS have treats on me and Carbon knows it. He knows when we're out walking he's going to get a ton of treats. He does things - behaviours that he knows I want - to get the treats and then looks at me waiting for his treat. I honestly haven't stepped foot outside the house without a pocketful for months now. Should we be randomly having walks where I DON'T have food at the ready?

 

[Beanwood]

Mmm... with this definition, then I very well may be using bribes.

I ALWAYS have treats on me and Carbon knows it. He knows when we're out walking he's going to get a ton of treats. He does things - behaviours that he knows I want - to get the treats and then looks at me waiting for his treat. I honestly haven't stepped foot outside the house without a pocketful for months now. Should we be randomly having walks where I DON'T have food at the ready?

Casper is terrible at this....he needs to see the money before he does anything! He knows exactly what I want him to do....and is perfectly capable, he just has this look..like you wanna hold that chew a wee bit closer to my nose first..?.

 

[snowbunny]

I almost always have treats on me, too, but I still get the same behaviours when I don't wear my treat pouch (very rare). I do also use environmental reinforcers with my dogs a lot, so it's not always about the food.

I'm not saying don't have treats with you, and it doesn't really matter if your dog knows you do - they become part of "who you are", but try those same behaviours in different scenarios. Will he sit on cue in your house when you're in your pyjamas, for example? Providing reinforcers from elsewhere to where he expects (eg a tub on a shelf) means he won't become dependent on that particular pocket to be there in order for the behaviour to happen.

 

[edzbird]

they become part of "who you are"

yes, this. Having treats on me is like wearing shoes. I just do.

 

[Beanwood]

I almost always have treats on me, too, but I still get the same behaviours when I don't wear my treat pouch (very rare). I do also use environmental reinforcers with my dogs a lot, so it's not always about the food.

Yes, same here. I do mix things up, for example, I don't wear a treat pouch when working Bramble, I rely on quiet verbal praise and strong reinforcement history. Very important when I need to work remotely, either recall or using directional cues. I do use food, of course, I just have to watch the timing. I do feel though, that from an emotional intelligence perspective, that I can go well into the "red" and have to be careful as I can't always control the environment.