Leanne
Sniffer Dog
- Location
- Shropshire, UK
My trainer just sent me this:
I quite like it!
I quite like it!
Video on Puppy socialisation
- Thread starter Leanne
- Start date
Thanks for sharing Leanne. The Dog Geek produces some good videos and cartoons, full of useful information. My only issue with this is the 'critical socialisation period' and it closing by 18 weeks which infers that after 18 weeks a dog can not be 'socialised' to new environments, sights, sounds etc which is just inaccurate. Pups and dogs frequently are placed in new situations and they cope well. The more you socialise the better but it's not impossible afterward the 18 weeks marker.
Beanwood
Administrator
Yes I agree with @MaccieD, whilst the period up to 18 weeks, is very important to help puppies become familiar with the usual sounds they will come in contact with, it's not the end of the world if they don't, an older rescue dog being a case in point. It also brings to mind the importance of a dog having being bred for a good temperament. Some are more resilient than others. With all the will in the world, if a dog is genetically predisposed to noise phobia or another form of anxiety, it is equally easy to balls up the socialisation period. Or overdo it with a naturally exuberant labrador!
Very good video though!
Very good video though!
- Location
- Argyll & Bute, Scotland
A great video but I don't agree with the upto 18 weeks either, also I don't think my dogs have met up to 150 dogs in their entire lives let alone upto 18 weeks. Depending on where you live this is not always possible. Simple and informative video x
x
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
The video is great.... but
I do wish people wouldn't call habituation "socialisation". You can't socialise your puppy to vehicles or noises or surfaces... these things are not living beings. Socialisation is about social interaction with other living things: humans, dogs, other pets and animals. The clue is in the name. Habituation is getting your dog used to their environment. You may think it's just semantics but vocabulary is hugely important in the behavioural world so we all know that we're on the same page. If you want to market yourself as "the dog geek" you better make sure you're being geeky in the scientific way, not in the "well, that's a bit crap" way
I also wish they made a bigger deal about the fact that this should all be done at the puppy's pace. They mention it, but I think it should be the main crux of the message. The biggest problem I see with the constant push for socialisation, socialisation, socialisation is that it puts tremendous pressure on puppy owners to get their pup into all these scenarios before "the window" closes and that can easily panic them into doing too much, too soon. As the others have said, you can absolutely take an older dog and habituate it to new things. Ginny is a case in point. I can pretty much guarantee that she didn't have a rich socialisation/habituation programme as a puppy. In fact, out of all of my dogs, the one who had the richest experiences at that age is the one with the most severe anxiety issues now.
I'm not saying it's not important, but I do believe that the base temperament is far, far more of a factor than this "window" is. And I also believe that if you have a naturally nervous dog, then the last thing you want to do is over-"socialise" it. You will not fix that anxiety and you have a good chance of making it worse. The problem is that, at this age, you may not even have a clue that your puppy is naturally predisposed to anxiety. Until I flip-flop again ( ), I'll be sticking with conservative socialisation and habituation for any of my new charges.
I do wish people wouldn't call habituation "socialisation". You can't socialise your puppy to vehicles or noises or surfaces... these things are not living beings. Socialisation is about social interaction with other living things: humans, dogs, other pets and animals. The clue is in the name. Habituation is getting your dog used to their environment. You may think it's just semantics but vocabulary is hugely important in the behavioural world so we all know that we're on the same page. If you want to market yourself as "the dog geek" you better make sure you're being geeky in the scientific way, not in the "well, that's a bit crap" way
I also wish they made a bigger deal about the fact that this should all be done at the puppy's pace. They mention it, but I think it should be the main crux of the message. The biggest problem I see with the constant push for socialisation, socialisation, socialisation is that it puts tremendous pressure on puppy owners to get their pup into all these scenarios before "the window" closes and that can easily panic them into doing too much, too soon. As the others have said, you can absolutely take an older dog and habituate it to new things. Ginny is a case in point. I can pretty much guarantee that she didn't have a rich socialisation/habituation programme as a puppy. In fact, out of all of my dogs, the one who had the richest experiences at that age is the one with the most severe anxiety issues now.
I'm not saying it's not important, but I do believe that the base temperament is far, far more of a factor than this "window" is. And I also believe that if you have a naturally nervous dog, then the last thing you want to do is over-"socialise" it. You will not fix that anxiety and you have a good chance of making it worse. The problem is that, at this age, you may not even have a clue that your puppy is naturally predisposed to anxiety. Until I flip-flop again (
), I'll be sticking with conservative socialisation and habituation for any of my new charges.
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
I have a friend with a nervous dog and she INSISTED that he sat by a main road even though he was terrified of traffic; at obedience class she dragged him from under the chair "you will come out" and now he is a nervous wreck. Socialisation/habituation should be taken at the dog's pace I believe.
If you're really geeky habituation is a little more than getting your dog used to the environment. Habituation can be described as the process whereby an animal becomes accustomed and de-sensitised to non-threatening environmental stimuli and learns to ignore them.Habituation is getting your dog used to their environment. You may think it's just semantics but vocabulary is hugely important in the behavioural world so we all know that we're on the same page. If you want to market yourself as "the dog geek" you better make sure you're being geeky in the scientific way, not in the "well, that's a bit crap" way
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Isn’t that one and the same? “Getting the dog used to” is synonymous with “accustomed and desensitised to”, surely?
For me, not completely. 'Getting used to' could mean that they aren't openly reacting to something (barking, lungeing, trying to run away for example) whereas habitation the aim is that they learn to ignore environmental stimulus and just carry on. An example for me would be going to a vet. A Dog can get used to going to the vet, not jump, growl, snap, bark, try to escape etc. but still display emotional discomfort - panting, salivating, ears back, unable to settle. A dog habituated to the vet would be relaxed in the environment with all the noises and smells. Being 'used to something' doesn't mean relaxed and comfortable with it. Desensitising has it's own inherent problems that you can end up sensitising the dog to the stimulus
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
OK, well by "getting used to", I was meaning "becoming happy with", so, to me, they are one and the same. But it just goes to show how careful we have to be with our terminology to be understood. I agree that it is all to easy to sensitise a dog to a stimulus when you've actually set out to desensitise it, particularly during the sensitive developmental periods. And if you do that, and you end up with a persistent learned fear response, you're pretty knackered. It seems that you've then got that forever, unless it's fixed before that critical period has ended, or you go down the fluoxetine route later on. Without medication, you can create conflicting positive responses, but once you stop working on those positive associations (because "he's fine now"), the learned fear responses will be renewed, reinstated or spontaneously recovered ("recovered" in the sense that the fear has returned, not in that the dog recovered); you have a job for life making those conflicting positive associations.
This is another reason that I worry about the emphasis that is put on cramming a wide array of socialisation experiences into such a short timeframe, without really stressing that it has to be led by the puppy, and can do more harm than good if you push it. And that, if we are looking to buy a puppy from a breeder, we need to put the same amount of emphasis on mental health as we do on physical health.
This is another reason that I worry about the emphasis that is put on cramming a wide array of socialisation experiences into such a short timeframe, without really stressing that it has to be led by the puppy, and can do more harm than good if you push it. And that, if we are looking to buy a puppy from a breeder, we need to put the same amount of emphasis on mental health as we do on physical health.
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK
Our GD manual for pups doesn’t mention the word socialisation. We have an experience checklist for them.
By 8-12 weeks they must have been introduced to busy town conditions, railway stations and going out after dark. All this while being carried. They also must meet - children of all ages, adults of all genders, visitors, tradesmen etc. They need to be handled by children and adults too.
Then from 12 weeks to 12 months we have a long list of experiences they need to have weekly.
Small shops/large stores
Glass doors/mirrors
Markets
Other animals
Busy schoolyard
Railway station
Train journey
Bus station
Bus journey
Enclosed lift
Glass lift
Cafes/pubs/restaurants
Processions and bands
Bridges and gratings
Evening/dusk/dark walks
All these are introduced gradually but our pups experience them all weekly - quite a few can be covered in one trip.
Obviously it’s less comprehensive for pet dogs, but you get the idea.
Exposure to other dogs happens weekly at puppy class, where they have to ignore each other! I have play dates once a week with other GD pups of various ages to be sure that all their early experiences of other dogs are positive. At 17 weeks they begin to have free runs three times a week and then they can meet and greet other dogs.
By 8-12 weeks they must have been introduced to busy town conditions, railway stations and going out after dark. All this while being carried. They also must meet - children of all ages, adults of all genders, visitors, tradesmen etc. They need to be handled by children and adults too.
Then from 12 weeks to 12 months we have a long list of experiences they need to have weekly.
Small shops/large stores
Glass doors/mirrors
Markets
Other animals
Busy schoolyard
Railway station
Train journey
Bus station
Bus journey
Enclosed lift
Glass lift
Cafes/pubs/restaurants
Processions and bands
Bridges and gratings
Evening/dusk/dark walks
All these are introduced gradually but our pups experience them all weekly - quite a few can be covered in one trip.
Obviously it’s less comprehensive for pet dogs, but you get the idea.
Exposure to other dogs happens weekly at puppy class, where they have to ignore each other! I have play dates once a week with other GD pups of various ages to be sure that all their early experiences of other dogs are positive. At 17 weeks they begin to have free runs three times a week and then they can meet and greet other dogs.
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Probably the most excessive, or should that be obsessive, list for socialisation/habituation/new experience has to be by Dr Sophia Yin. I'm sure some dogs could cope with the intensity of new experience thrust upon them if you follow her guidance, I do feel though that for many dogs it would do more harm than good. It may give some owners a 'positive glow' upon completion but a one-off experience doesn't habituate a pup to something it's numerous positive experiences that does that.
I have to say I do have doubts around what we promote as socialisation (which in the training world in general is shorthand to include habituation) having met and trained with numerous pups who have had little or no socialisation, despite encouraging owners to take those pups out and about and they have been absolutely fine with new experiences etc. Perhaps breeding/mental health of the lines are of more importance .......
I have to say I do have doubts around what we promote as socialisation (which in the training world in general is shorthand to include habituation
) having met and trained with numerous pups who have had little or no socialisation, despite encouraging owners to take those pups out and about and they have been absolutely fine with new experiences etc. Perhaps breeding/mental health of the lines are of more importance .......
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK
Yes, it’s all about doing it over and over and over again throughout puppyhood. Being sure that the pup isn’t stressed by any of it. At any sign of stress move further away and watch at a distance where the pup is comfortable.
It was brought home to me when we went on holiday with Gypsy and Tatze. We visited a lighthouse. I went to the top with Gypsy and wondered where Mr Boogs had got to. He was at the bottom with Tatze. Of course Gypsy was well used to all and every kind of steps and stairs. Tatze just refused point blank to go on the spiral, open stairs of the lighthouse, even ‘tho she’s not a nervous dog at all. She has experienced very limited types of steps and stairs.
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It was brought home to me when we went on holiday with Gypsy and Tatze. We visited a lighthouse. I went to the top with Gypsy and wondered where Mr Boogs had got to. He was at the bottom with Tatze. Of course Gypsy was well used to all and every kind of steps and stairs. Tatze just refused point blank to go on the spiral, open stairs of the lighthouse, even ‘tho she’s not a nervous dog at all. She has experienced very limited types of steps and stairs.
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- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I think this is it, absolutely. Luna is just brilliant. Brilliant. She approaches new experiences optimistically. She had less "socialisation" than Willow did, and yet is far more rounded and has been from the start. Additionally, her body language was impeccable from Day 1. I asked my breeder how much interaction she had had with the other dogs and was told almost none, other than her litter mates and her mother. This absolutely exquisite body language is entirely natural. Just as some people are natural optimists or natural pessimists, so with dogs. We have some influence on this, but you're always working within the "window" of what the genetics will allow. Breeders who are breeding for robust temperament should be lauded as it is so important. This is one of the reasons, I'm sure, why Guide Dogs have their own breeding programme; because by breeding for temperament (by only breeding from dogs who pass their tests), they get a far higher success rate than taking puppies from outside litters.
So going back to the list of things that you should expose your puppy to within that "window", it should be highly personalised. A GD puppy or a Luna puppy will be able to take so much more than a Willow type puppy, or your archetypal neurotic border collie.
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK
Absolutely, and even then one in four don’t make it to Big School.
But, at the same time, practicing all the experiences they need to have is vital too.
I think my friend and I were lucky with Tatze and Zaba as we knew nothing about temperament when we chose our pups and just chose for excellent health scores. Yet they have both turned out to be optimistic, calm dogs.
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Most definitely. From bringing Juno home at 10 weeks I did very little in exposing her to new sights, sounds etc. Well when I say very little, I actually mean none
apart from a little walk down our drive to stand/sit and wait to see some traffic go past - well a car or tractor. From 14/15 weeks we did a weekly training session somewhere around town to provide new experiences and noises, past the hospital, the gendarmerie, the fire station, around streets with dog's shut in the garden while owners at work, a coffee in town and visits to the weekly market. Plus a weekly dog walk with a mix of breeds/ages/sizes and their owners. So on one hand the 'window' was closing on introducing new experiences and yet Juno is a really calm laid back girl who just goes with the flow.