Weepy eye...

[snowbunny]

Kipper quickly became averse to a drop in his eye, even with the temptation of a yoghurt spoon.

This highlights the problem of coercion. Using food (or access to a resource) to get your dog to do something they don't want to do can damage trust. Coercion is subtly different to a lure; a lure is where you are using food to position a dog to perform a behaviour that is neutral (doesn't currently have any positive or negative associations). Coercion is using reinforcers such as food to get your dog to do something he doesn't like. Even if it works, I would argue that it's not best practice.

Using games like Chirag's Bucket Game to get true cooperative care is ideal - although you do still have to be careful that you are not using coercion. This is where it gets a bit confusing; if you remove a reinforcer when the dog looks away (a reinforcer being your attention, food or whatever) then you are using coercion. You have to reward the dog's choice to disengage. Something as simple as saying "my dog no longer wants to play, so I'll end the session and get on with my day" can be punishing for the dog and so they will tolerate something they otherwise wouldn't to avoid that punishment.

In the long-term, we should probably all be using classical conditioning to slowly build a positive emotional response to these processes. That takes time and a lot of patience! And, of course, in the meantime, things happen. Our dogs get eye infections that we have to deal with. My advice when this happens is to have a strategy which looks very different to your ongoing training. So, as you are doing, continue with the bucket game for future issues, but right now, have the "picture" of putting the drops into his eyes very, very different to your game, otherwise you run the risk of contaminating the bucket game with negative feelings. For example, if you are playing the bucket game in the living room, then when he has no choice, only apply his drops in the kitchen. Have a distinct cue that starts the bucket game. If you are asking him whether he is OK to continue, you had better be prepared for that answer to be "no", and you must respect that. If you're going to do what you want anyway, then you shouldn't be asking, as this damages trust. So for those scenarios where he has no choice, don't ask. Don't even try to play the game. Just say, "this is how it is", make it as minimally traumatic as possible, and then get on with your day. But over time practicing the bucket game, you will be able to get the "yes" answer more and more, so you can start bringing that into treatment programmes.

 

[HAH]

ohhh, this is interesting and answers a lot that I'd been mulling on - thanks @snowbunny.

I was quite conscious that the coercion was Not Great, whilst also needing to just do the thing. I've been keeping environments seperate for training, playing the bucket game outside, and have been careful to make it on Kipper's terms; if he wants to go off and sniff, or watch the swallows overhead, that's fine. And I wait for him to approach me and lie down. I've been using a cue phrase - "are you ready?" and an upbeat "eye-drop!" when I put the tube near him, followed by a "good!" and treat. It's been a real help for me to improve reading him too, and I've got better at seeing when he engages and disengages. It's tricky to then balance with the reward/nonreward of withdrawing a reinforcer, but I guess this may be accommodated by using something else rewarding to signal the end of one game (the bucket game)? I've been using a ball or toy to say "all done" and then have a quick game with the ball to keep it upbeat, not sure if this is a good thing or might just confuse?

As it happens, the eye dropping environment is quite different from the above (in the kitchen, standing, not asking for any specific behaviour) because I've wanted to keep it quick and clean without any preamble - so hopefully this won't have queered my pitch for the longer term training.

 

[snowbunny]

Sounds like you're on the right lines!

I've learned a lot about coercion with Willow because she reacts very badly and very clearly to it. One of the times the discussion is applicable is if we're stuck in the hallway because she's nervous about going out. If I know she's capable of doing it, we play pressure-off, pressure-on games to get her approaching and past boundaries she's unsure of, but if she turns away and goes back inside, she's saying "nope, I can't do this right now". And for that, I give her a big reward. I know it sounds peculiar in that I'm rewarding her for the opposite of what I want her to do, but we're dealing with emotions here more than we are behaviours and I want her to know it's absolutely OK to say "not right now". In fact, I'm pleased she does it. If I were to just give up and follow her inside, she would be less likely to even try in the future as when it gets too tough, she is punished by a removal of my attention. So yes, your play at the end of the bucket game is great, but ensure you use it even if your dog is the one that's ended the game. And don't feel you have to "end on a high" by trying for a "yes" after you've had a "no". When your dog says "no", that's the end. You want to try to manage it so you are always ending on a "yes", but do that by stopping the session before you get to the "no". You can always have another session ten minutes later.
By ending with a good play session (whatever the final answer), you're also rewarding his engagement in the bucket game. Keep sessions really short and vary the length. Sometimes, just go for one "yes" and start your play. Other times, have a couple of minutes. When you're asking your dog to cooperate in something they're not entirely thrilled with, it's so important that the good stuff really heavily outweighs the less good stuff. So ditch any idea that one piece of food counterbalances one faked eyedrop, it doesn't. Or at least, it will take a painfully long time if you try that. Stack the deck so your reinforcers are a thousand times better. One "yes" results in a thirty second game of tug, or whatever your dog enjoys. By starting off this way and making any cooperation a Big Deal, you will far more quickly build a positive emotional response so that the later stages are easier.

I hope that helps

 

[HAH]

it's so important that the good stuff really heavily outweighs the less good stuff

brilliant! This is great advice, I've been working on '1 for 1' lines with the odd bonus treat, but it felt a bit stingy and not quite...encouraging enough. I'll definitely up the ante and vary duration more, this feels like quite a breakthrough in approach. Thank you

 

[Shaz82]

After many applications of gels and creams for her eyes she was eventually prescribed the human stuff, which I guess is what @edzbird

Could you let me know what these were please and how you got on with them?

I have just posted a new thread about this as Maisy has a gunky eye and probably needs some drops. Thanks.

 

[Cath]

When Fred had a weepy eye he was prescribed human stuff , I kept the leaflet

Chloramphenicol Eyes drops 5%

I know you can get it from Boots. I don't know if this is what the other girls are talking about.

 

[Shaz82]

When Fred had a weepy eye he was prescribed human stuff , I kept the leaflet

Chloramphenicol Eyes drops 5%

I know you can get it from Boots. I don't know if this is what the other girls are talking about.

Thank you, I think this is one of them. I am trying it today, hopefully it will do the trick.

 

[Plum's mum]

Could you let me know what these were please and how you got on with them?

I have just posted a new thread about this as Maisy has a gunky eye and probably needs some drops. Thanks.

It was Celuvisc, 1%. A fiver for a box.

 

[Shaz82]

It was Celuvisc, 1%. A fiver for a box.

Thank you

 

[Jacqui-S]

It was Celuvisc, 1%. A fiver for a box.

Thank you

Celluvisc is just a lubricant, no antibiotics. That's not to say it won't be useful.
If you want an antibiotic then I THINK chloramphenicol is the only OTC one - Optrex infected eyes, or the Goldeneye one as long as it says chloramphenicol (some don't have it), or another own brand.
I think vets normally use the Fucidic Acid eye drops (Brand Fucithalmic for humans) but to be honest I don't think it is available OTC.

Eyes are pretty tricky though, as both @kateincornwall and @Heidrun will tell you, but I know exactly why you want to give it a go after paying £25 for a cream I could have diverted from work.....

 

[SteffiS]

Ripple has just had a course of Clinagel-Vet which contains Gentamicin. His eyes have cleared up - but probably only until he rolls in the mouldy straw again .

 

[kateincornwall]

Hoping all the gunky eyed dogs are improving but please , if your dog has a persistent eye problem , take them to the Vets . My late Millie had a weepy/messy eye , we took her to the Vet who issued an ointment , it didn't clear . We took her back and she was immediately referred to the eye specialist ( same day ! ) at the animal hospital in Devon where she had emergency surgery for whats called a Melting Ulcer , she ended up having a corneal transplant . Whilst I don't want to scare monger , and yes most eye infections/irritations will clear with simple treatment , don't delay to take them to the Vets if they don't clear quickly xx

 

[Heidrun]

What Kate said!! One of mine also developed a melting ulcer a few years ago and needed a corneal transplant. I don’t mess around with eyes and only put in them what is prescribed by a vet. Some over the counter human drops can make certain conditions worse!

 

[Shaz82]

I have been trying to get hold of some of the cream/gel/drops which has proved quite tricky so have ordered a tube of Lubrithal from petdrugsonline. Thanks for all your tips on this, I am keeping all the info for future use, I really didn't know there was so much available in dog/pet medication without having to go to the vet.

I did ring a vet advice service linked to the insurance yesterday and they asked me a lot of questions about the condition and suggested I go to the vet because the discharge is yellow and indicates infection, but this morning all is fine again so it seems it might have sorted itself out. If there is any worsening I will go.

In the meantime I will clean it a bit more and use the gel when it arrives, just to make sure.
Sorry to have hijacked this thread.