Training Thought for the Day

[snowbunny]

I thought I'd start up this thread where we can share one-line nuggets that we hear that "speak" to us or make us think. Feel free to discuss!

Today's TFTD is:

Just because you're using positive reinforcement,
it doesn't necessarily mean it's a positive experience for the dog.​

 

[Joy]

Well if we define positive reinforcement as adding something to make the behaviour more likely to occur, I'm finding it hard to think of what you might add that would do this but also not be a pleasant (which I think must be the meaning of the second 'positive') experience for the dog.

 

[snowbunny]

A simple one is if the dog is finding the training session stressful, or frustrating, or boring. The behaviour might still increase, meaning it is technically reinforcement, but it doesn't mean that the experience is pleasant for them.

 

[Beanwood]

I think for me, it would be the recent experience with Otter at the vet. I let Otter follow me, she hesitated at the door going into the clinic room. I stopped, and the vet clearly wanted me to usher her in, now naturally for a lot of people that could mean using some high-value treats, and coaxing her in. For me, that would be using "positive" reinforcement, in the form of treats for what could've been a "negative" experience. At the very least it adds conflict in the dog's mind which I would rather she did not have.

 

[snowbunny]

I am watching Willow at the moment. You guys know that I’ve often said I have to be very careful with her when she’s learning something new because she can, for want of a better phrase, “stress down”. I have to break behaviours into the tiniest slivers in order to make sure she doesn’t get worried during training. It’s not that she didn’t like it, she did, but now I have a different perspective. Now we have had what is essentially a paradigm shift with her, I can see something I didn’t before. Now, she is trying to push in on the others’ sessions. When Willow and another are in their settle and I put the previously working dog into a settle, Willow is always pushing forward to be the one who gets trained next.
This isn’t a lack of training (ok, it is, but that’s not my point), this is a fundamental change in her outlook. She was always happy to wait before, now she is impatient to start.

My training has changed recently to be as anal and precise as I am capable of. I still have a long way to go, but this has been a big change for me. Willow has also had the change in her overall outlook due to her meds changing

Whichever of these is the biggest influencing factor doesn’t really matter in regards to this point. I have only ever used R+ with Willow, but I have been acutely aware along the journey about how careful I needed to be not to stress her, else she would opt out. Even if just for a minute or so.

That is the point that resonated with me from this quote. This is a dog who has only ever known positive reinforcement training. And yet, I had to walk on eggshells because it wasn’t always a good experience for her. This is why we need to look beyond what we think should be good “on paper” and actually get into a conversation with our dogs. Just because you are giving good stuff and your dog is learning skills doesn’t mean that it is an enjoyable experience or environment.

 

[Peartree]

I think that there is a real lack of looking at the emotional response of the dog in training and just looking at the response in terms of rates of success.

One of my dogs definitely finds shaping very frustrating and stressful and I always now lure or capture with him to reduce this. My younger dog is quite happy to be shaped and withholding a reward results in him tilting his head to one side and having a think about what he can do, before having another go.

I was very interested to hear a well known clicker instructor talk about an exercise shaping a person with a clicker. She carried on until she got the desired response and was quite thrilled that she had managed to shape a person. At the end of the session though, her subject burst into tears and said that it had been a most stressful and unpleasant experience. She said that it taught her that you can teach something and attach totally the wrong emotional state to whatever you are trying to do.

 

[Stacia]

I was a human who was clicker trained in a class, just to show us how to do it. I didn't find it stressful but very interesting and rewarding, maybe it depends on the person with the clicker!

 

[snowbunny]

I was a human who was clicker trained in a class, just to show us how to do it. I didn't find it stressful but very interesting and rewarding, maybe it depends on the person with the clicker!

I think it’s a very useful exercise to demonstrate how frustrating it can be and therefore why you have to not have those “sitting and staring at your learner” moments. The environment must be set up to almost guarantee that they will perform the slice of the task you are after.

 

[Boogie]

I thought I'd start up this thread where we can share one-line nuggets that we hear that "speak" to us or make us think. Feel free to discuss!

Today's TFTD is:

Just because you're using positive reinforcement,
it doesn't necessarily mean it's a positive experience for the dog.​

I think that’s very true.

Spencer seems to be happy so long as he’s with me, whatever I’m doing he’s happy to be doing it with me. Not Tatze, she thinks ‘do I want to do that?’ quite often. I think Spencer’s attitude could be due to his ‘bomb proofness’ but it could just be his character. The only time I have to work on how Spencer is feeling is when I’m leaving him - he’s fine if it’s part of our routine but any sudden departures can worry him.
.

 

[snowbunny]

TTFTD, picked up from a podcast on this morning’s run. I think it was attributed to Jean Donaldson.

A dog’s brain is approximately the size of a lemon. It’s more efficient to fill that space with the few things you DO want than everything you DON’T.​

 

[M.F.]

Snowie associates the vet or physio with treats. He barges in and demands his treats. First he sits (of his own accord) and wags his tail. If no treats are forthcoming he barks deafeningly. And he insists on treats throughout the session. And I think he’s getting stressed now when the treats aren’t coming in a steady stream. He just can’t relax and enjoy the session. The physio sessions are very enjoyable. He did once fall asleep while being massaged. But because of the treats association, it’s like me when I know there’s food at a meeting: I can’t concentrate on the presenter cos I’m thinking: Yum, what’s to eat?! (Assuming my dog and I am the same in this regard! ) I’m thinking we need to go cold turkey at the next session and no treats, let’s just make the session itself the focus of enjoyment, because the treats—or lack thereof in the seconds between each treat—are making it more stressful. I think.

This thread had got me thinking that the thing (the treat in this case) that was meant to make it a positive experience has now made it stressful. Any tips?

 

[snowbunny]

I think you need to suck it and see, listen to your dog. Is the food distracting him from something he'd rather not face, and he's finding it too difficult without? Or is he uncertain of how to get the food - this is a very common thing when we have dogs who vocalise, it's because there's no clear route to reinforcement and so they get frustrated. If they know "when I do X (or when X happens), I get a treat", then that's clear to them, but if they are getting it with no sense of formula, it can be confusing when it stops. So going cold turkey will likely initially exacerbate the barking behaviour in the form of extinction bursts, meaning that it will become worse before it starts to die away, but you need to be aware that extinction happens through punishment and can be very frustrating to the dog. So if you see that happening, I'd be more inclined to change the set-up so that the treats are contingent on something. I don't know what form your physio sessions take, but let's say for massage, the treat might come when the hands are removed from him. So you'd work on very short touches to start - touch, remove hands, treat, so he makes the association between the hands being removed and the treat coming, and then build up to longer times under manipulation. That means he will understand that he gets a treat only when the hands are removed, so there is no frustration about "why am I not getting treats at the moment?".

I hope that makes sense? Of course, you might find that simply by not having treats on your body at all that that immediately solves the problem and you don't have to go through all of that, but if I saw frustration, that's how I would deal with it

 

[M.F.]

I think that’s it: Snowie thinks that just being there = treats. So, he’s doing his part of the bargain; why aren’t we doing ours? It is very frustrating for him if we don’t follow through with treats. Yes, he only barks when he’s frustrated (he’s not a barky dog under other circumstances).

Hmmm we did it wrong then. Because there’s no clear thing for him to do—other than being there—in order to get the treat. We are trying to treat for quiet, and he also does try use his “inside voice” (it’s very cute). But I don’t think we’ve got it right at all. We followed the physio’s cue of treating for being in the treadmill tank (in water). In hindsight, we didn’t need to treat for this cos Snowie is really happy being in there. But now we can’t fade the treats without his getting frustrated for not getting them. I’ll start a new thread of his physio treatment. I have videos. You might see something I’m not seeing.

 

[Stacia]

I would go cold turkey as well and reward at the end of the session, perhaps outside the room, otherwise Snowie will be concentrating on the treat in your pocket.

 

[Stacia]

Have a look at Denise Fenzi's Blog "Twenty to One" 2019-6-29 - not quite the same situation but is pertinent I think.

 

[M.F.]

I would go cold turkey as well and reward at the end of the session, perhaps outside the room, otherwise Snowie will be concentrating on the treat in your pocket.

Interestingly, this is what the head physio did when Snowie had his last assessment (about 45 mins of examining his whole body with her hands and various exercises). It’s a different room to the treadmill room but he also immediately sits in this room and watches the treat jar. And moans and barks. She said: no treats while she examines because the barking had got too much. We were prepared to see how it goes, and he actually appeared much less frustrated. But after we’d left the premises and were in the parking area, she called him and gave him some treats and lots of happy petting.

As for the treat in my pocket. Hah! In the treadmill room, each dog has its own treat container! Here’s a pic of them! Snowie in front on the balance board (for core strength).

 

[snowbunny]

Nice muscular bum there, Snowie!!

 

[HAH]

Nice muscular bum there, Snowie!!

That’s what I thought!

 

[snowbunny]

Today's TFTD:

It is never a good idea to attempt to coax your dog to do something s/he finds scary by using food.
​

This is something I was reminded of while watching a webinar by the fabulous Kathy Sdao. She was discussing how to deal with dogs who "are not motivated by food", "fussy eaters" and so on. The first step is, of course, ensuring we don't create these issues in the first place, and one way we can inadvertently do that is by poisoning the behaviour of eating.

We know that in order to strengthen a behaviour we reinforce it - and that reinforcement has to be delivered after the behaviour. Similarly, if we want to reduce a behaviour, we punish it, and that means delivering the punishment - again, after the behaviour. So here's the thing: when we give food, and then a bad thing happens, that bad thing can easily punish the behaviour of eating food.

This could be in situations such as:

• Luring a dog into a car when he is afraid of it
• Luring a dog across a slippery surface
• Feeding a dog so he doesn't notice a scary person/dog/thing
• Feeding a dog to distract him from an unpleasant procedure (eg nail trimming, blood taking etc)

It's very easy to become complacent with the use of food, as it tends to be a pretty easy "win", but if we lose the ability to use it as a reinforcer, it can be very hard to get it back. We all know not to follow a recall with a punishment, and we should apply the same thought process to eating food. If we damage the dog's willingness to eat in these situations, we have lost a hugely flexible reinforcer.

This is not to say that food cannot be used in these situations, but we have to be very strict about the order. The food must appear after the event or behaviour, never before. Luring a dog across a scary piece of floor = bad. Feeding the dog for successive approximations of walking over the floor = good.

 

[Anne123]

Perhaps it is old school, but I have been told that when you lure your dog by giving him food for doing something he/she is afraid of you actually are saying that indeed it is scary and you won’t solve the problem but increase the fear...