- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
Interesting post @snowbunny.
Training Thought for the Day
- Thread starter snowbunny
- Start date
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I don’t think you’re necessarily confirming the fear, but think of it this way: if you’re deathly scared of spiders but someone says they’ll pay you ten euros if you put your hand in a box of spiders, would you do it? What if they offered you a thousand? Ten thousand? At some point, you will reach a value where it is worth your while putting your hand in the box, despite your fear. But does the promise of money make you feel any better about those spiders? Or is having your hand in that box while you’re scared of them going to stay with you? The feeling of them crawling over your hand, and up your wrist...
Even though it might be “worth it” in terms of the reward, you are going to have experienced a traumatic event which is unlikely to have made your feelings about the spiders any less extreme going forwards.
- Location
- Argyll & Bute, Scotland
So it's the same as the nail clipping, teeth cleaning, ear/eye drops waiting for your dog to be comfortable and moving at their pace and being rewarded for one tooth or nail being touched or walking past the scary dog and getting sausage? or am I barking up the wrong tree, again! 
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Beanwood
Administrator
Very good question! This is where choice comes in, and ensuring your dog is in the right mindset to work with with you when it comes to co-operative husbandry that is. Ideally, when working with the dog on eye-drops, nails etc, this is prior to developing any negative association with the process. You are just taking it at teeny, tiny steps. At the end of the day, if the dog says no, we respect that.So it's the same as the nail clipping, teeth cleaning, ear/eye drops waiting for your dog to be comfortable and moving at their pace and being rewarded for one tooth or nail being touched or walking past the scary dog and getting sausage? or am I barking up the wrong tree, again!
Personally, looking at the scenario of luring past a scary dog with sausage, it is really a management tool where you simply have no choice, and luring with sausage is better than trying to pull, drag, or panic! With Casper, any hint of a situation where I am stuck, I literally hustle past, sausage on nose, talking calmly to him.
- Location
- Argyll & Bute, Scotland
Me too with Charlie! I guess it's making an on the spot decision in whatever scenario your faced with and we all do that even if it is luring xxPersonally, looking at the scenario of luring past a scary dog with sausage, it is really a management tool where you simply have no choice, and luring with sausage is better than trying to pull, drag, or panic! With Casper, any hint of a situation where I am stuck, I literally hustle past, sausage on nose, talking calmly to him.
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I would suggest that that's subtly different to the concept I was thinking of. Management in potentially reactive situations is different - one would assume you practice these skills, so they become a learned behaviour. It's still potentially problematic; that is, if you only ever use the technique when there are scary things around, if the dog notices the trigger in the middle of the transport, they will start to associate the treat magnet with the unpleasant feeling, and using the technique will start to have negative connotations for the dog. You might notice them going on alert when you start your part of the behaviour sequence. That's why these skills should be regularly practiced outside of the stressful situation, so the dog has more opportunities to do them when there is no risk of negative feelings, to counteract those times when they need to be done for real.
With husbandry, then there are a couple of different things. If you're training true cooperative care, then yes you will be giving them the choice to move away and say "no", and pacing your training so that they very rarely feel they have to. However, there are times that husbandry needs to be done before you have finished training. In these situations, it's potentially problematic to distract the dog from the procedure with food, because if there comes a point during the eating where the dog realises what is going on, that's far more distressing than if they understood from the outset. I experienced this exact thing with Willow, and it's where all her problems with nail trimming stemmed from; when she was young, we would distract her with a pouch of blitzed sardines while I did her nails without her realising. One day, she suddenly noticed what was going on and totally freaked out. After that, she would see the pouch coming out, and actively avoid jumping on the sofa, which is where we did the trimming. She had made a negative association between the pouch of sardines in that environment and the nail trimming. It's better in those situations where the procedure cannot be avoided (similarly with injections etc), to not give the dog a choice, but allow them to take in what is happening and feed them after the event. So now with Willow, on the days when she has to have her nails trimmed, J sits next to her (which puts social pressure on her to stay - he doesn't need to physically restrain her, but it is essentially the same thing), and I pick up her foot (rather than asking her if she consents), trim a nail, then give her a piece of food. And repeat until all nails are done. There is no asking if she's happy to continue, it just gets done. Each time I do this, it puts our consent training back a way, so I then have to try to build it up again before it's necessary to trim them all again.
Of course, it depends on the dog's feelings about the procedure - a while ago, I had to administer a course of injections to Luna and didn't have any help. She had some basic pretend injection experience through the cooperative care course, but she wasn't at the stage I could expect her to sit still while I gave her the actual injection, so I used a plate with cream cheese smeared on it to keep her still. However, this wasn't to distract her from the procedure: I was very clear with her what was about to happen, I showed her the syringe and asked her to jump on the sofa. She knew what was going to happen, and complied eagerly. Here's a video I took, which is after four weeks of daily injections - you can see she knows the drill, but doesn't show any avoidance:
A more sensitive dog may not be able to deal with this, and would actually be better being more "present" in the moment. Attempts to feed them could add stress, and put negative feelings onto that food delivery.
With husbandry, then there are a couple of different things. If you're training true cooperative care, then yes you will be giving them the choice to move away and say "no", and pacing your training so that they very rarely feel they have to. However, there are times that husbandry needs to be done before you have finished training. In these situations, it's potentially problematic to distract the dog from the procedure with food, because if there comes a point during the eating where the dog realises what is going on, that's far more distressing than if they understood from the outset. I experienced this exact thing with Willow, and it's where all her problems with nail trimming stemmed from; when she was young, we would distract her with a pouch of blitzed sardines while I did her nails without her realising. One day, she suddenly noticed what was going on and totally freaked out. After that, she would see the pouch coming out, and actively avoid jumping on the sofa, which is where we did the trimming. She had made a negative association between the pouch of sardines in that environment and the nail trimming. It's better in those situations where the procedure cannot be avoided (similarly with injections etc), to not give the dog a choice, but allow them to take in what is happening and feed them after the event. So now with Willow, on the days when she has to have her nails trimmed, J sits next to her (which puts social pressure on her to stay - he doesn't need to physically restrain her, but it is essentially the same thing), and I pick up her foot (rather than asking her if she consents), trim a nail, then give her a piece of food. And repeat until all nails are done. There is no asking if she's happy to continue, it just gets done. Each time I do this, it puts our consent training back a way, so I then have to try to build it up again before it's necessary to trim them all again.
Of course, it depends on the dog's feelings about the procedure - a while ago, I had to administer a course of injections to Luna and didn't have any help. She had some basic pretend injection experience through the cooperative care course, but she wasn't at the stage I could expect her to sit still while I gave her the actual injection, so I used a plate with cream cheese smeared on it to keep her still. However, this wasn't to distract her from the procedure: I was very clear with her what was about to happen, I showed her the syringe and asked her to jump on the sofa. She knew what was going to happen, and complied eagerly. Here's a video I took, which is after four weeks of daily injections - you can see she knows the drill, but doesn't show any avoidance:
A more sensitive dog may not be able to deal with this, and would actually be better being more "present" in the moment. Attempts to feed them could add stress, and put negative feelings onto that food delivery.
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
Heavens, that looked a large injection! Brilliant way to distract Luna. If we are at the vet, I usually scratch the dog quite firmly somewhere else so he doesn't notice the needle going in.
Beanwood
Administrator
That's an incredible video! Blimey! Especially love the way Luna jumps onto the sofa.
With Otter, we had just started co-operative care around the mouth, lifting her lip, that was as far as we got.
Yesterday at her dental check-up, we just had to get on with it. She has naturally grown in confidence around people so it wasn't too much of a problem. Otter allowed the vet to look into her mouth without a problem, we were even able to take a few photos. We didn't use treats at all in the examining room, only when we had finished. Then we spent time looking at the toys, playing with a few before we left. Otter gets entranced with rows and rows of toys!
With Otter, we had just started co-operative care around the mouth, lifting her lip, that was as far as we got.
Yesterday at her dental check-up, we just had to get on with it. She has naturally grown in confidence around people so it wasn't too much of a problem. Otter allowed the vet to look into her mouth without a problem, we were even able to take a few photos. We didn't use treats at all in the examining room, only when we had finished. Then we spent time looking at the toys, playing with a few before we left. Otter gets entranced with rows and rows of toys!
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Yep, 10ml sub-cut, every day for 30 days. By the end, it was a struggle to find a suitable spot for injecting her.
She was a total superstar about it, which is just as well because I was on my own for most of that!
Yep, and I think so important that she understood what was coming. If I'd tried to hide the injection and sneak up on her, even as temperamentally solid as she is, I know she would have started to balk at that. Instead, I made the routine very familiar: she got to sniff the syringe and bottle, she'd watch as I attached the needle and drew up the liquid, and then she'd jump on the sofa for the injection. The first week or so, I did some pretend ones without the needle attached to start, and then a few where I poked her with the needle without inserting it, but I didn't have the benefit of time to work through the full cooperative care procedure, as from day one she had to actually have the injection.
You can see in the video that she pauses when the needle goes in, and looks in that direction, so there's no distraction going on - she's fully aware. I think it was quite sore for her by this point. The food is simply there to keep her in one place, as I didn't have the time to train extended stillness in this context.
@Beanwood I think that the cooperative care is invaluable in just getting the dog used to being touched in unusual ways, so even when we don't manage to get through the whole scenario of a task before we need to put them in that situation for real, just the fact we've done strange stuff to them in the past and it's been OK gives them the understanding that sometimes humans do that, and it's not a total disaster. Sounds like Otter did brilliantly
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
Was a lot to go in! I usually inject at more of an angle, that is when I had to do it. What a very good girl she was.
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I was instructed to go in at ninety degrees to the body. Pull the skin up, then stick the needle straight down into the top of the folded bit. This reduces the risk of going too deep. Maybe that's something they get untrained people to do, so we don't accidentally hit anything important, and professionals do it a different way?
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
All the professionals I have seen do it at an angle 
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
They're probably (definitely ) more skilled than I at knowing where the end of the needle is. I'm just an imbecile when it comes to anything medical! Both my vet and my paramedic/nurse sister said it was best to do it the way I was instructed to ensure it remained subcutaneous.
) more skilled than I at knowing where the end of the needle is. I'm just an imbecile when it comes to anything medical! Both my vet and my paramedic/nurse sister said it was best to do it the way I was instructed to ensure it remained subcutaneous.
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
As long as it was a success, that is all that mattersThey're probably (definitely
Last edited by a moderator:
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
This TTFTD is from Kay Laurence. She totally infuriates me, and I'm forever shouting "NO!" at her podcasts, but every now and again there's a little nugget that resonates, and this is one of them.
Squirrel? A cue to chase. Food? A cue to eat. When dogs break away from performing "our" behaviours when a distraction occurs, it's just because they are being given conflicting cues, the same as if there are two different people simultaneously asking him to "come". Which he listens to depends on their independent reinforcement histories.
A distraction is just a cue to the dog to perform a certain behaviour
Squirrel? A cue to chase. Food? A cue to eat. When dogs break away from performing "our" behaviours when a distraction occurs, it's just because they are being given conflicting cues, the same as if there are two different people simultaneously asking him to "come". Which he listens to depends on their independent reinforcement histories.
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Things like hunger, satiation, and tiredness are what are known as “motivating operators” and increase or decrease the likelihood of a cue to result in a behaviourHmmm... it’s neat, and I can’t actually disagree with it
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK
Hmmm yes, I think this is true.
When I think of Tatze, she got no joy out of chasing squirrels - they always went up the nearest tree. Now she assumes all small runny animals will do the same and doesn’t even bother to chase squirrels, rabbits etc. But cats - she had great fun chasing Zaba’s cat when she was a pup and now she’s crazeeeee for cats.
When I think of me - wine beats chocolate but chocolate beats everything else - so you’d need a brilliant strategy to get me doing anything else on a Saturday evening!