Awful "Professional" Training Methods

Candy

Biscuit Tin Guardian
The point, those people will tell you, is that by denying them of any interactivity for long periods, they are happier to see you and more eager to work with you when you do let them out. I think it's relatively common practice with gundogs still - or at least not hugely unusual.
I defy any dog to be more eager to retrieve or happier to see her hooman than GGJ is when she runs waggily to greet me, toy, sock or slipper in mouth after I've popped out for five minutes to buy milk!
 

Beanwood

Administrator
It's still the norm for some gundog trainers. They also run "pet gundog" classes where the old school "leave in crate /kennel" mentality is taken as red. It goes hand in hand with aversive training by same said trainers. Bang the crate with a rolled up newspaper if they make a noise. You end up going to a class of silent, still dogs who daren't make a noise let alone glance to the left or right. I went to one of these, and was surprised by how close the dogs were to each other in discussions after exercises. The dogs were simply not allowed to express themselves even in terms of mild discomfiture. Lots of quick, subtle tugs by their owners with "no" hissed under their breath.
 
I think Cesar Milan has had a lot of influence on the general population to accept aversive methods. I know I was influenced by his sensational tv show. It took a (horrible) trainer to shake me violently by the shoulders because I was not shouting NO loud enough to Snowie. Her shaking me thankfully shook some sense into me (not her intention!) because the violence of that shake made me realize that what she was asking me to do to Snowie was in opposition to my general desire to be kind. When I walked away from that class, I felt a great relief that I no longer had to live with that cognitive dissonance.

While I’m sure everyone lives with cognitive dissonance, we aren’t always aware of it. You can ask yourselves, “Do I really have no mental conflict by feeling that it’s correct to be kind to pet dogs but feel quite okay that most animals are farmed cruelly and sent to slaughter for human consumption?” You might argue that this thread is about locking dogs away in a cage. I’d argue that it’s about how people manage to convince themselves it’s quite okay to do something so that they don’t have to feel that mental conflict. The ones locking their dogs in a cage will have a list of reasons why it’s quite okay. Telling them it’s wrong will probably result in that list of reasons why it’s not wrong. Asking them if it’s in alignment with their values might have a different result.
 
Yup cognitive dissonance is alive and well! I'm hyper aware of it with my choices around food at the moment. I have started to think that my sudden physical distaste of meat is actually something driven by my unconscious mind pushing me to resolve some of this. I find it fascinating to attempt to pull apart my own mind like this! I was always able to say, with apparently absolute clarity, "it's OK because we're designed to eat meat", "the animals have been bred specifically for meat", and other such reasoning. The words of non-meat-eaters were water off a duck's back, largely because they're often very ranty, or inaccurate, or dismissive, or even abusive... but mainly because I was programmed to do what I had been doing, it was the normal, it was part of who I was, and I had no reason to change. Change is hard!

I'm thinking that what happened is that by studying more and more behaviour, and becoming more empathetic to dogs, it made me realise the breadth of emotion that exists across all animals. I didn't realise this at the time, but it's there with me now. If I try a tiny bit of meat now, such as when I'm cooking J's meals and I need to test for flavour, it's that thought that makes it unpalatable to me, even though that's not how it started.

And now... well, I still have a lot going on. For example, I'm still eating fish. I think that will likely change in the future, too. It's easy to think that fish aren't as important as mammals, because they are so different, but I watched a video a few weeks back which was demonstrating line-fishing from a boat. It was put out as a "wow, this is amazing!" sort of video, with the sheer numbers of fish they were catching, but all I could think was that those fish that were flopping around on deck were dying in fear, and that is not right. BUT, I am not ready to take that step yet, because Change Is Hard. Same with dairy. I know that by consuming dairy, I am complicit in keeping sentient animals in horrible conditions. When I do so much to enrich the lives of the animals living in my house by ensuring they're mentally and physically stimulated as individuals, that they live without fear and pain, that they are happy and fulfilled, how can I turn my back on all those hundreds of thousands of animals who are confined for life, without enrichment of any sort, without any consideration of their mental state and individuality, just so I can have cheese in my sandwich? One reason: cognitive dissonance.

I'll take it one step farther. I would never feed my dogs a vegan diet because - no. So, I will continue to support the meat trade by keeping dogs. If I were to completely shed myself of CD, I would have to stop owning dogs. And pretty much living life, if we're honest!

The truth is, that there is no one right answer. Even if I were to give up on all products tied to the meat industry, how far do I go in ensuring there are no paths back to it? Honestly, I don't have the time or energy to ensure that no bone has been used in the fertilisers in which my veg have been grown. That the carbon footprint isn't huge. That the synthetic materials I might choose over leather are better for the environment in all ways. That they don't support slave labour or poverty. It's all just too much. People pointing these things out to me is more likely to send me scurrying back into my hole of doing what I've always done, rather than pulling me over to their way of thinking. It's truly and utterly exhausting.

It's really no wonder that, when people who are new to "a thing" are told "this is the right way", they take that advice from people who have experience. It's human nature to do so. And once that becomes a "thing they do", it's hard for them to change. This goes for the people who are doing the telling, too. We should not judge those people harshly. After all, when you are told you are WRONG for eating meat, does it make you change your mind? Does anything I've said above change your mind about it? It's really, really unlikely, because it's a Thing You Do. It doesn't mean that you've not considered it - I had, many times previously, and I had plenty of reasons as to why it was OK to continue. So I don't expect (or want) to change anyone's mind about eating meat, especially when I'm still muddling through the issues myself. But, in the same vein as this discussion of what is wrong, and cruel, think about all those people who believe YOU are wrong and cruel for the things you do to animals. I'm not one of them, I hasten to add, but you can see the parallels, I hope.

These things they do don't make them horrible people, in the same way that you're not a horrible person for eating meat, driving a diesel car, using a plastic bag, squashing a bug... we all do the Things We Do until we are ready to change, if that ever happens, and no amount of condemnation is going to change the majority of people's behaviour.
 
Interesting to read your thoughts, wish I had time to develop my thoughts, but don't unfortunately. I eat very little meat, perhaps once or twice a month, as don't particularly like it, have vowed never to eat lamb because of the lambs at the bottom of my garden and I hate it when they are gathered up there to go to the slaughterhouse. I gave up eating my own vegetables years ago as I didn't like killing them!!!! We do do unspeakable cruelty to some of the animals we eat, others are well looked after but still have to go through the fear of slaughter.

A young dog died because it was fed a vegan diet, it was taken to an homeopathic vet and she eventually referred it to the practice where I worked, but it was too late. Cats MUST eat meat!
 

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
I really dislike killing anything, even bugs. I am constantly surprised and saddened at humankind’s inhumanity to our own species and other species. I have no problems growing and eating veggies and fruit - except for the many eeebie geebies which eat them and render them inedible, which causes me not to want to bother.

But I will eat meat that I know was kindly reared and killed as humanely as possible.

A lot of my family are veggies. My son became veggie aged sixteen.

.
 
Cats MUST eat meat!
Yup, they are obligate carnivores, like ferrets. So if you are not a meat eater, I would argue that you're experiencing cognitive dissonance if you choose to own a cat (or ferret), because by doing so, you are contributing to the death of animals.

But I will eat meat that I know was kindly reared and killed as humanely as possible.
This is something I said, too. I can't tell you what caused my switch to flick, but now it seems a bit hollow. Essentially it boils down to, if I wouldn't tolerate a dog or a human being living and dying the same way and for the same reasons, then I can't justify it. As I said, I'm still very much a work in progress in a practical sense, though, and because I heard all these arguments for many, many years without them touching me, I don't expect them to touch anyone else. I just find the whole process of how our brains can create this disconnect really intriguing. I would scream from the rooftops how it was unconscionable to use a prong collar on a dog, whilst happily allowing hundreds upon thousands of sentient animals to be butchered for my benefit. However they lived, it seems totally alien to my "new brain" that I couldn't see the discord there.

For the biblical types, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (or words to that effect). Maybe the old book was onto something there :D
 
If you want to go down that road @snowbunny we also keep dogs captive for our pleasure, however kind we are to them and however much it has become a dependent relationship for both species ...

:unsure:
Yep, this is something I've thought of before, too. Pets live with us because they provide us with something, that's all. Where you draw the line is going to be based on your personal ethics. I can't say "I keep a pet dog captive, so it's OK that other animals are killed for my consumption" because, to me, that's an appeal to extremes and therefore a fallacious argument. But for others, well, yes, it might be true.
 

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
I wasn’t trying to argue that it is equivalent - but that we all have cognitive dissonance when it comes to having pets too. Where to draw the line is also an interesting question.

Maybe it’s an irregular verb?

“I am a dog owner

You use dogs

They are cruel to dogs”

:unsure:
 
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I too am going off meat which has only happened in the last year or so. I don't eat beef and as a family we haven't for over 24 years since the BSE scare. I don't like lamb any more yet a year ago it was my favourite meat. I am down to chicken and fish. I'm not sure if it's maybe as we get older out taste buds change or I am reading and watching the TV advising us to cut back on meat to help the planet. I will definitely be cooking more veggie meals as soon as I have finished this mountain of packing and have moved. I don't think I could become vegetarian as there are too many things I like with chicken in it. But I do worry about fish, how they die and frankly what they are now consuming due to plastic pollution in our rivers and oceans. There is always an ethical issue to worry about and as long as we all do our bit when going about our lives it will help. xx
 
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