- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
Liver pate is a godsend to disguising tablets. Otherwise, being an ex veterinary nurse I am a dab hand at popping a pill down their throats 
Ginny
- Thread starter snowbunny
- Start date
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
We had a few days off meds to assess the difference, and there was a noticeable decline in Ginny's activity levels, so she's now back on the Hyaloral and a new drug, Trocoxil. I hadn't heard of this before, so I had a read up about it: Trocoxil is a major breakthrough in the treatment of arthritis in dogs
It's a slow-release NSAID that you administer only once a month (after the second dose, which is five two weeks after the first), so it's a lot more convenient than daily meloxicam.
I was out with my camera at brekkie time this morning, so J fed them and I gave the tablets just now with some pate, but in reading, it says that it's important the tablet is given with a full meal to ensure maximum absorption. So, lucky Ginny, she get a second breakfast! She didn't complain....
She's lost just under a kilogram since our last visit, too - hurrah! So back down to 21.4kg, which is still a bit on the porky side. I'd like to get her down to around 20 if I can. So no more double breakfasts
It's a slow-release NSAID that you administer only once a month (after the second dose, which is five two weeks after the first), so it's a lot more convenient than daily meloxicam.
I was out with my camera at brekkie time this morning, so J fed them and I gave the tablets just now with some pate, but in reading, it says that it's important the tablet is given with a full meal to ensure maximum absorption. So, lucky Ginny, she get a second breakfast! She didn't complain....
She's lost just under a kilogram since our last visit, too - hurrah! So back down to 21.4kg, which is still a bit on the porky side. I'd like to get her down to around 20 if I can. So no more double breakfasts
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
I seem to be able to get back on the forum now! @snowbunny, I was very interested in Trocoxil, but on looking it up I see it is still an NSAID which Rourke cannot take unfortunately. However, if a dog can tolerate it, then is sounds excellent as it is slow release and will be great for Ginny.
Woah, that stuff sounds amazing! Will be very interested to hear how it works for Ginny.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Ginny is now at a great fighting weight: 18.8kg, very trim looking. I'm really pleased with the combination of the Trocoxil and the joint supplements. She's absolutely flying on walks, managing two a day here, whereas she was only on one a day back in Spain. She's running ahead instead of plodding behind, and generally loving life! With all the extra exercise, the weight has just dropped off her, and I've upped her food a bit so that she has enough to build muscle.
We've replaced the Hyaloral with another supplement, Hialo Active XL+, which has a higher concentration of the active ingredients.
Really, really pleased with her progress
We've replaced the Hyaloral with another supplement, Hialo Active XL+, which has a higher concentration of the active ingredients.
Really, really pleased with her progress
Jacqui-S
Moderator
- Location
- Fife, Scotland
Who would have thought a Spanish tripawd would thrive in the snow and ice?
What a fabulous girl.
What a fabulous girl.
Cath
MLF Sales Coordinator
Great news, well done Ginny and @snowbunny
Great to hear! I’m particularly interested because Snowie is starting to suffer from arthritis. You wouldn’t know on walks except possibly at the end when he lags. And the physiotherapist says she can’t see anything when he walks. But at home he’s stiff on rising and now sometimes cries out on rising or lying down, a short cry. The physio said to approach pain management in a very systematic way: change nothing else except give pain meds. Observe for one month to see if anything changes. We’ve decided we’ll try this with our vet in the new year. But I’m interested in the pain meds and supplement you’re using. We’re using GCS joint supplement at the moment. I’ve read Rimadyl is really bad (I think for the liver; can’t remember) and I see Trocoxil is in the same class of drugs. I’m wondering if there is a safer drug. Also, have you ever considered Cartrophen injections?
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
I've heard that NSAIDs are not recommended for long-term use, but there are those who are trying to dispel this belief. Here's an article on the matter, that links to some research: Are Long Term Pain Medications (NSAIDS) Safe for Dogs?
“We found that this was not true, there was no association between the longer you give a non-steroidal and the risk of side effects. As far as we can tell, we don’t find any relationship between those two things- length of non-steroidal use and incidence of side effects. Often, the clinical approach to a young or middle-aged dog with osteoarthritis associated pain is to avoid the use of NSAIDs. The rationale often quoted for this approach is that the practitioner wants to leave the use of NSAIDs for later, and not have a dog on NSAIDs for the whole of its life. This is a flawed and rather naïve approach.”
Lascelles goes on to say that, when NSAID side effects do occur, they are most likely to appear within the first two to four weeks after beginning therapy.
My dogs all have regular blood tests to check their organ function, so if there is any effect on the liver (which is very unlikely), it will be flagged. I have considered Cartrophen, but this Trocoxil therapy is preferred by my vet as the first approach and since it's working well and Ginny tolerates NSAIDs, I don't see the necessity to change. Of course, if her blood tests highlight any change to her organ function, for whatever reason, we will reassess.
The most important thing is to ensure the pain is controlled as early as possible, otherwise it can change the CNS, and that is far more difficult to reverse.
“We found that this was not true, there was no association between the longer you give a non-steroidal and the risk of side effects. As far as we can tell, we don’t find any relationship between those two things- length of non-steroidal use and incidence of side effects. Often, the clinical approach to a young or middle-aged dog with osteoarthritis associated pain is to avoid the use of NSAIDs. The rationale often quoted for this approach is that the practitioner wants to leave the use of NSAIDs for later, and not have a dog on NSAIDs for the whole of its life. This is a flawed and rather naïve approach.”
Lascelles goes on to say that, when NSAID side effects do occur, they are most likely to appear within the first two to four weeks after beginning therapy.
My dogs all have regular blood tests to check their organ function, so if there is any effect on the liver (which is very unlikely), it will be flagged. I have considered Cartrophen, but this Trocoxil therapy is preferred by my vet as the first approach and since it's working well and Ginny tolerates NSAIDs, I don't see the necessity to change. Of course, if her blood tests highlight any change to her organ function, for whatever reason, we will reassess.
The most important thing is to ensure the pain is controlled as early as possible, otherwise it can change the CNS, and that is far more difficult to reverse.
Thanks for the info. And I shall read that article.
Central nervous system? What happens?
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
A couple of different things, as I understand it. Firstly, simply having the pain means you change your movement patterns in order to avoid the pain. Those new movement patterns become programmed into our CNS and so become automatic - we don't realise we're doing them, and they persist even once the pain has gone. That, of course, puts extra strain on the parts of our body which are compensating.
Furthermore, with chronic pain, the CNS can become sensitised, meaning that even small amounts of pain become amplified. The nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord change over time, and can cause a separate chronic pain disease, separate to the arthritis. Centralized Pain | Breaking the Arthritis Pain Chain | Arthritis.org
That's great news about Ginny @snowbunny, I've mentioned before about Monty moving much better in cold weather... Probably unlikely to be the same for Ginny but maybe she appreciates the cold air too?
Just to add in our experience of NSAIDS. Monty has been on them daily now for over 5 years. 2-3 months of tablet previcox in late 2014 followed by liquid Meloxicam in early 2015, which has continued ever since. We have been doing annual blood tests for the last 3 years, we may move to 6 monthly next year. All have been absolutely fine.
There was never a question for me... Yes, some small risks associated with continued use, but the alternative is a dog in pain.
To be quite blunt, it's possible they may shorten his life- potentially, but his arthritis is probably going to do that anyway. I believe NSAIDS gave us our dog back. He was walking so badly when he was young -( the gait analysis is really interesting as it shows pressure and stride length on each foot ) and this was much improved after a few months on NSAIDS. I even wish I'd pushed for them earlier.
Of all the things I worry about now, daily Meloxicam isn't one of them and I am so thankful Monty can stomach them without any adverse effect.
Just to add in our experience of NSAIDS. Monty has been on them daily now for over 5 years. 2-3 months of tablet previcox in late 2014 followed by liquid Meloxicam in early 2015, which has continued ever since. We have been doing annual blood tests for the last 3 years, we may move to 6 monthly next year. All have been absolutely fine.
There was never a question for me... Yes, some small risks associated with continued use, but the alternative is a dog in pain.
To be quite blunt, it's possible they may shorten his life- potentially, but his arthritis is probably going to do that anyway. I believe NSAIDS gave us our dog back. He was walking so badly when he was young -( the gait analysis is really interesting as it shows pressure and stride length on each foot ) and this was much improved after a few months on NSAIDS. I even wish I'd pushed for them earlier.
Of all the things I worry about now, daily Meloxicam isn't one of them and I am so thankful Monty can stomach them without any adverse effect.
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
I so wish Rourke could take NSAIDs but after ten days of taking one, he vomits and then vomits blood.
I'm really sorry he can't. Have you explored other painkillers for him- for example paracetamol or tramadol?
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
No I haven't, rather scared to do so, in case they upset his stomach. It is strange because he can eat anything and not get an upset stomach! He has been on Prednisone, managed 9 days then vomited, panted, trembled. So on half dose 10 mgs daily, not had 6 days, so fingers crossed. He cannot unfortunately stay on Prednisone.
Maybe you could have another chat with your vet and maybe push them for other options? I know it isn't easy to do, but maybe there's something out there for Rourke that might help a bit. Sorry you are going through this, I can empathise with you x
I think I’ll make the vet appointment sooner rather than later after reading the linked articles and about @snowbunny ’s and @Natalie ’s experiences with NSAIDS. Snowie has a stash of Rimadyl and Tramadol for emergency use. And it works effectively and he’s had no side effects. I can’t bear it when he cries out, it breaks my heart to know he’s in pain. The physio did wonder if he’s just more vocal than other dogs and possibly not in constant pain, but rather just has acute attacks on rising or lying down, much like we might get up after sitting for a long time and go “ooh my ankle” and limp for a few strides and then be fine. She said her examination of him shows her nothing problematic. And his stride is fine. But I just don’t like how he’s become hesitant about lying down. Just when we solved the epilepsy problem. Now arthritis. This poor dog. My husband and I are right now discussing if we should give him pain meds tonight. It’s so difficult to decide, we’re worried about doing the wrong thing. He’s just staggered half asleep from his bed to lie next to my side of the bed, and on lying down he gave a little cry. But now he’s on his side and gone to sleep. Oh. Spoke too soon. He got up and went back to his bed. I guess it’s softer than the floor.
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
I have seen a specialist orthopaedic vet and apart from Paracetamol, Tramadol and Gabapentin, there aren't any other options. Perhaps I should try them and hope he doesn't have the side effects he has had on the NSAIDs.
probably a really silly question, as no doubt your vet would have said this.... But when you tried the NSAIDS, you did give them with a good handful of food and definitely not on an empty stomach? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious.