The Labraventures of Carbón, Spanish (ex-) foster dog extraordinaire

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Is there another room or hall you could sit him in and then call him from there? Or yes, sit him at a distance and then call him to his bowl.

I gave this a try this morning. It was kind of a flurry of spiralling limbs and bouncy dog but he did come. The thing is, he's supposed to make eye contact with me and then I give him the 'take it' command. This time I said 'here' with his recall hand signal, he skidded up to the food and then just dived in.

So the 'here' worked but we lost all control before the eating bit.

We'll keep trying it. Today on our jog it became very apparent that he needs me to take a step back and not allow him off leash until we've got this sorted better. We'd done our jog (on leash 'working' walk) and at the end I've been letting him off lead to swim in the river and have some hooleys. Today mid-hooley he raised his head, saw another dog WAAAAY in the distance and just took off. He went a very long way, with me gasping behind him. Luckily the dog he'd spotted was friendly and the lady waved at me that she would stay there until I could catch up with my wheezing bratwurst body.

By the time I got there, he'd lost interest in the dog and was eating something disgusting in the bushes. The cherry on the cake.

No real harm was done but it brought home that I've not been approaching this correctly and Carbon is not safe off lead. So we'll go back to basics and both of us will need to forgo the joy of his hooleys for a bit.

 

[snowbunny]

The thing is, he's supposed to make eye contact with me and then I give him the 'take it' command. This time I said 'here' with his recall hand signal, he skidded up to the food and then just dived in.

You need to think about what you're trying to achieve. Is the recall to be reinforced by using his food? If that's the case, then you don't want the other step in there, because what the food is reinforcing then is the "wait until released". Another idea might be to use your recall as the release to food delivered by you. So sit him up in the normal way (or whatever you do) and then blow your whistle (or use your word) which allows him to take the food. You can still add distance this way - set him up two paces back, you stand behind the bowl, wait for eye contact and give your recall cue to release him to the food. That way he's pairing the recall cue with the delivery of a reward next to you.

 

[snowbunny]

That is not to say you can't make a behaviour chain (dog runs to you on the recall, sits and gets rewarded with the food), but you have to work on these steps individually first, before bringing them together. This is the same principle as creating, for example, a retrieve chain, which is made up of lots of various behaviours which are all brought together with a reward at the end. But you start off with the bits individually, or at least back-chain so you start with the end and then add the previous step, then the previous step to that etc.

 

[Stacia]

I would train just for the recall with no 'look at me'. You can train the 'look at me' with titbits or a ball or a stroke. I think the recall lis the most important behaviour to train, because if you have that, it will get you out of any trouble

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

You need to think about what you're trying to achieve. Is the recall to be reinforced by using his food? If that's the case, then you don't want the other step in there, because what the food is reinforcing then is the "wait until released". Another idea might be to use your recall as the release to food delivered by you. So sit him up in the normal way (or whatever you do) and then blow your whistle (or use your word) which allows him to take the food. You can still add distance this way - set him up two paces back, you stand behind the bowl, wait for eye contact and give your recall cue to release him to the food. That way he's pairing the recall cue with the delivery of a reward next to you.

So in the confines of my small studio, I could ask him to sit and wait 5 or so feet away from the bowl, then I walk to the bowl, then give him the signal for recall and let him go directly to the food without 'take it'? We do that now with treats outside, except of course the treats come straight from my hand and aren't on the ground.

 

[snowbunny]

Yep, that's it
The food doesn't even need to be on the ground; the reason that we use meal times to practice recall is that it's a huge jackpot reward for the dog, so really helps strengthen your recall. But, if you don't want him going straight into the food on the ground, you could have his bowl on the counter, recall him and then give it to him. If you offer it to his face and then put it on the floor as he's munching (if you have enough time ) then he's getting the reward for the recall, but not taking food from the floor without being released.

 

[Charlie]

Aint that always the toughtest thing to train - recall!! On lots of pluses Carbon is doing so well, you must be proud. If it's any help, I never understood how to train a 'go sniff' so I would be interested in that help also xx

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

But, if you don't want him going straight into the food on the ground, you could have his bowl on the counter, recall him and then give it to him.

I like this idea, thank you! I'm really keen on getting him to think that anything on the ground is off limits, just for safety's sake. I don't know if that's even possible, but I'm giving it a shot. He's certainly keeping me on my toes during walks as I TRY to scan for what he might consider edible. His definition of that word is much broader than mine.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Don't worry everything is edible everything. It's a given

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Don't worry everything is edible everything. It's a given

Yes, I'm learning that. I think there may even have been old nappies involved in today's debacle. I'm trying not to think about it too much, especially as I got plenty of kisses later on in the day.

Dog's mouths are like ovens...self-cleaning, right?

 

[SwampDonkey]

Yes self cleaning that's right

 

[Lisa]

Carbon sounds so much like Simba!! From the lack of recall to the food-scrounging to the definite ideas on where to go or not go on walks....He'sa a "carbon" copy of my boy (see what I did there? ).

Recall was a very slow process for us, and we haven't completely cracked it but it's good enough for me. I used the long lead (and still use it) and it worked a treat. Caveat being that Simba is not a puller on lead so I (mostly) have not had the problem of him getting a good head of steam up and for the 30 feet of lead and pulling me off my feet...

Holding the long lead while on walks helped him understand that staying close was what we did on walks. The other thing that helped immensely was to toss a treats down close by as I walked occasionally - gave him an incentive to stay close. They I would start to toss a treat to him (between him and me, so he had to get closer to get it) whenever he stopped to look back at me while walking. THAT didn't take long to learn! And I still do this. Now (after five years!) I still have the long lead on, but for the most part I'm not holding it, it just drags after him. He will amble on ahead but is always stopping to check in (and get a treat). And I have the lead for insurance in case another dog comes along (technically they are supposed to be on lead where I am walking) or if we round a corner and see a deer or other wildlife.

It works great for us.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Carbon sounds so much like Simba!! From the lack of recall to the food-scrounging to the definite ideas on where to go or not go on walks....He'sa a "carbon" copy of my boy (see what I did there? ).

Simba and Carbon need to form a chapter of FSA (Food Scroungers Anonymous) - I bet they're not the only ones, either.

Well, I've kept true to my vow to no more off lead romps until Carbon's recall is better, but now he's going loopy in the head. It may be a co-incidence that the last two days he's been bouncing off the walls, but I don't think so.

I've not dragged out out the long line yet, so I'm definitely at fault. I just HATE that thing. It gets heavy and tangled and it usually ends up burning my hands. Plus I'm always worried that the dog's legs will tangle in the line and cause injury. Ugh. So I've just been walking Carbon instead and it's just not enough. My mangled foot means I'm just too slow. He's generally so good on leash (despite the food hoovering tendencies) but today he actually had to be reminded not to pull for the first time in weeks and weeks. I guess it's just time to deal with my long line phobia!

I like the idea of the treats and have a few friends who do that very successfully with their dogs. However, I'm trying to be consistent with the idea that NO food gets eaten off the floor or ground. I think I would be confusing Carbon if I started chucking treats. Even in the house, he gets treats from my hand only.

I wonder if I'm going wrong there?

By the way, if he's just walking along with me off leash, he's quite good at staying next to me. The problem is when he gets distracted by (1) another dog, (2) potential FOOD or (3) water. About 75% of the time I can head him off and keep him near with a 'reset' (that means come back to me on my left) but 25% of the time he's gone. Like way, way gone. That's the scary bit!

 

[Selina27]

I wonder if I'm going wrong there?

I wouldn't like to say whether you are right or wrong, and I think there is a certain amount of confusion about taking treats from the ground or not, well speaking for myself there is!
But what I can say is that having recently signed up to AD Training Academy I have discovered that Cassie just loves to chase/hunt/ run down her rewards and just loves to catch them . This has been a major breakthough, and depending where we are walking and the value of rewards versus what she can scavenge/ get her hunting knickers on for has made a huge difference, Even when I have released her to "go play" she hardly goes any distance, again this is influenced by distractions, but in the main she spends most of her time at my side, looking for the next game of catch. If I can make a piece of kibble bounce down the tarmac she's ecstatic! And then returns to me, it's like the clicker heel but a bit more exciting, well a lot more exciting really! I don't suppose I will ever stop her eating poo once and for all, but her staying closer improves the chances.
And I have recently bought her a clam toy, so far we have only worked in the house with it but it's proving great fun, she loves it, the more so if she has to wait while it skids down the wooden floor and she gets to chase it! And then bring it back when it is empty

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

This has been a major breakthough, and depending where we are walking and the value of rewards versus what she can scavenge/ get her hunting knickers on for has made a huge difference, Even when I have released her to "go play" she hardly goes any distance, again this is influenced by distractions, but in the main she spends most of her time at my side, looking for the next game of catch.

Mmm...this is really interesting. I really do wonder if I should give this a try with Carbon. I'd say that what I'm doing now is not working all that much AND he's clearly getting bored with 'plain walks'. That may be making scavenging even more exiting as the walks themselves are a bit ho hum now that all his toys have floated down the river never to be seen again. He loves his city walks when we do lots of @snowbunny 's A-B 'This way' thing, though - it's just the nature walks he's finding a bit boring and starts looking for his own fun.

And I have recently bought her a clam toy,

Is that the soft ball toy that unfolds and you put treats inside? @Naya and Harley had one when I was in the UK...maybe Pongo too?

Poor Carbon, maybe we need to go toy shopping again. We'll just have to keep any new things away from the river.

 

[snowbunny]

About the not eating food off the floor thing, I do understand where you're coming from, but dogs are so very contextual, they are more than capable of learning that different situations mean different things. It's what we call "modifier cues". In this case, the initial cue is food on the floor. It's how that cue is modified that determines whether it's available to be eaten or not.

You already use this, so it's not too confusing, honest. It's the exact same thing as you have with the food bowl. If you put the food bowl on the floor, he is not allowed to take it. Yet as soon as you give your release, you have modified the "default" cue and so he is now allowed to scarf it down. He understands the rules perfectly. So all you have to do is define those rules and communicate them. If you want to teach a default leave for food on the floor, that's fine, but there is no reason you can't also teach him that if he has been told to get it, or if he is playing a certain game, the food is his. I think that by not allowing your dog to chase treats, play things like ping pong recall, scatter feeding etc, you're denying yourself a whole host of really handy training tools. Dogs are smart - trust him. You're smart. Work out your rules and apply them.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

About the not eating food off the floor thing, I do understand where you're coming from, but dogs are so very contextual, they are more than capable of learning that different situations mean different things. It's what we call "modifier cues". In this case, the initial cue is food on the floor. It's how that cue is modified that determines whether it's available to be eaten or not.

Thanks, Fiona - I see what you mean and am willing to give it a try. I'm definitely becoming boring on non-city walks plus we need some new tools in the kit for recall. This is a steep learning curve for me, maybe because of my Rottie background. Of course I've taught recall, but Rotties generally want to stay glued to your side so it doesn't take a lot of training savvy to make that happen. Ditto with food - that's just not a huge motivator for them. I'm in a whole different world here with Señor Carbon.

I've certainly seen the food scatter work brilliantly with the @Beanwood gang as well as Fine, my friend's very well-trained and smart chihuahua. I'll need to give it a think on how to introduce it as now I've already used treats scattered outside to teach 'don't touch'- which he is a real star about. Unfortunately his current thinking is "If it comes from foster lady's hand and falls on the ground, then I don't take it - but if I spot something already on the ground and she doesn't give the 'don't touch' command fast enough...fair game, sucker!"

 

[snowbunny]

I'll need to give it a think on how to introduce it as now I've already used treats scattered outside to teach 'don't touch'- which he is a real star about.

Just say "scatter!" in a bright tone as you're dropping the treats and he'll probably take that as a release cue. Otherwise, say "scatter!" then, if he doesn't move, encourage him in. Eventually, he'll get the idea that "scatter!" means he can take them.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

We gave the treats on the ground a try! It was interesting - I learned Carbon has no sense of smell - and kept Carbon entertained. I think my technique - or his nose - needs a bit of improvement, but it was a good start. We saw dogs in the distance twice and he didn't try to run after them, plus he seemed more focused on me vs. trying to find dirty baby nappies in the bushes.

He did a lovely sit-stay on the old Roman bridge leading over the Danube into town. Lots of people and bikes and he just sat there like a superstar watching them all go by.

Good boy!

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Just say "scatter!" in a bright tone as you're dropping the treats and he'll probably take that as a release cue. Otherwise, say "scatter!" then, if he doesn't move, encourage him in. Eventually, he'll get the idea that "scatter!" means he can take them.

I used "take it" at first as he knows that command really well along with "don't touch". Then once he got the idea, I used my German friend's command that she uses to 'search' for treats, which is 'sucht!". After hearing it for so many years with Fine, it's what just kind of came out.