Raw, combination or no change?

[snowbunny]

Don’t be surprised if she does throw up or get the runs at first; it can take a while for them to get the hang of it! If she throws up and wants at it again, I’d let her; this is usually caused by them not chewing enough and rather than vomiting per se, they just regurgitate so they can grind it a little more.
The trotters we buy in the supermarket here are cut lengthways so I give half at a time. A whole trotter is very big and I think it might be too much for her tummy to handle; trotters took a few attempts before they stopped getting the runs. Even better if you can quarter them, that’s how much I gave at first.
Next time you buy them, ask the butcher to cut them for you. They should have a saw so they can slice them lengthways. A cleaver is also very useful!
Don’t be afraid of fat, as dogs need fat in their diet, but also you don’t want to feed too much. Maybe cut the fat off the lamb but save it and add it to a meal where there is very little fat, such as skinless chicken or white fish.

 

[FayRose]

Thanks snowbunny, that helps a lot, just the info I needed.

 

[Jennifer]

Sorry I'm late adding to this thread but a conversation I had today reminded me of something my vet told me a couple of years ago about feeding raw or kibble. On paper feeding half and half is a balanced diet but it's the dogs ability to digest both types of food that determines whether it is balanced. A dog fed completely raw food has a much more acidic (I think I've got that the right way around) digestive system than one fed on kibble and consequently wouldn't fully digest kibble and vice versa. The problem feeding half and half is can a dogs digestive system adapt to fully digest both types of food. Obviously there are dogs on the forum fed half and half who are fit and healthy. I guess it's probably down to the individual dog. As with lots of things what works for one might not work for another.

 

[MaccieD]

On paper feeding half and half is a balanced diet but it's the dogs ability to digest both types of food that determines whether it is balanced.

Absolutely @Jennifer - in theory it's balanced. Unless you have completed some interesting mathematical calculations you don't know if the minerals and vitamins from each food have remained in balance as different amounts are frequently quoted on different foods. Most of what we calculate relates to calories . Food manufacturers only call it a 'balanced' diet if that's all you feed. Mixing different manufacturers with their own ethos for food production is problematic. Best advice would be if you mix kibble with wet meat or raw would be to buy from one manufacturer , but then as you say, it's up to each individual to make choices for their dog.

 

[FayRose]

More and more confusion. All I'm trying to do is help Molly with the allergies/itchiness and anal gland problems. I'll try anything that may help, without her having to be poked around every few weeks with all the nasties that can cause.

In any case, I've lost my confidence with switching to raw - too many horror stories from friends/family and vets ! So, I'm giving her more meat, heart, liver and gristly stuff but cooking it, hoping it will help clear the anal glands.

 

[snowbunny]

Absolutely @Jennifer - in theory it's balanced. Unless you have completed some interesting mathematical calculations you don't know if the minerals and vitamins from each food have remained in balance as different amounts are frequently quoted on different foods. Most of what we calculate relates to calories .

This just doesn't make sense! There are no calculations to be made. With kibble, each mouthful of food is exactly the same which means that every piece of kibble is balanced (however that is defined for that particular food) with the correct percentage of each and every nutrient. If your dog needs one cup a day, he is getting a balanced diet. If he needs three cups a day, he is getting a balanced diet. That's that.
If the thing you are mixing it with is also balanced, then the same applies. When feeding raw or home made, obviously not every mouthful is the same, so you need to make sure that, over what you do feed, you are getting the right balance. But as long as you do that, there are no further calculations to make by mixing one balanced source with another. If both are balanced, then the whole will be balanced, whatever proportions you choose to feed them in. If either one of them is unbalanced, then the nutritional profile as a whole will be unbalanced, but it makes no sense at all to say that mixing balanced foods from different manufacturers or mixing a complete kibble with any other balanced food source will create an imbalanced diet.

Feed a balanced raw diet and chuck in two pieces of kibble => balanced diet.
Feed kibble and chuck in a spoonful of premade raw* => balanced diet.
Move that line of how much of each food you're giving and it makes no difference. It will always be a balanced diet.

* I say premade raw here only because it's difficult to get a balanced raw diet in a spoon-sized amount without it being minced up!

The only thing you will have to figure out is how much volume or weight of each you need to feed, because they will have different caloric densities, meaning that one cup of one type of food has more calories than the same volume of the other food. I don't work out caloric values for the food I eat, nor for the food my dogs eat. Not do I weigh or measure it - that doesn't make sense as their activity levels vary day by day and week by week, as does the number of training treats they get. I just feed them and if they're looking a bit porky, I cut down their food and if they're looking a bit lean, I increase it.

reminded me of something my vet told me a couple of years ago about feeding raw or kibble. On paper feeding half and half is a balanced diet but it's the dogs ability to digest both types of food that determines whether it is balanced. A dog fed completely raw food has a much more acidic (I think I've got that the right way around) digestive system than one fed on kibble and consequently wouldn't fully digest kibble and vice versa. The problem feeding half and half is can a dogs digestive system adapt to fully digest both types of food.

This has no basis in evidence. Here is a very interesting article on it which, I think, does a very good job of saying that it's really unlikely there is a problem mixing.
Gastric pH in raw & kibble fed dogs

TL;DR
...the claim that kibble fed dogs actually have neutral or alkaline gastric pH values is completely unsubstantiated and verifiably false. An alkaline or neutral gastric pH would not be able to digest raw OR kibble, and would result in severe malnutrition.

What this means is that the significance of this difference in gastric pH between raw and kibble fed dogs has been highly exaggerated in order to fit some raw feeders’ “all or nothing” agendas.

Note this is from a site which is aimed at raw feeders!!

 

[Aitch]

I absolutely agree with @snowbunny here. I have fed a mixture for donkey's years and my dogs have always been healthy, fit and active. This has lead to my vet asking if I could do a write up about it several times. I have declined to do this as I don't want to be responsible for what other owners do with their dogs.
I go by how my dogs look and behave. They have a wonderful digestion if fed healthily and are always happy to work and play long and hard.
In the end, you have to do what you feel fits with your dog. Your dog will let you know if it isn't right.

 

[Oberon]

The relative amounts of kibble versus raw patty don’t matter - Snowbunny’s point. To know if it’s actually balanced you’d have to know the total quantities of nutrients etc in that diet, relative to the animal’s daily needs. A balanced diet means getting enough of the right nutrients (minerals, vitamins, fatty acids, amino acids...), energy, protein, carbs, fat, fibre, water etc etc. It’s not just about proportions but also quantity.

Digestive systems can cope just fine with a variety of foods in one meal. The system will process and move through some elements faster than others but that’s natural. We humans don’t isolate food types according to digestion rate and you don’t need to do it with your dog either. Feed raw and kibble together. It’s fine. And overall, in total, adding it all up, try to make sure the diet contains enough of what your dog needs. Not in every meal, but in general over several days or a week.

If you’re not confident in doing that totally from scratch then make 100% of the diet a quality, commercial, pre-prepared food (kibble, raw patties, or both, in any proportion you want) that is sufficient in quantity to keep your dog at the right weight.

 

[Jennifer]

Firstly I'm not saying a kibble fed dog has neutral or alkaline Ph. Neither am I saying dogs can't thrive on a mixed diet. As I pointed out there are dogs on the forum who clearly do. I was just passing on some info from my vet which while not scientifically proven is what from experience she has found which includes rescue dogs she has cared for who haven't thrived when changed from raw to kibble. Obviously over a period of time the digestive system adapts to the change in diet but the reason my vet told me this information was because she was telling me about a puppy she'd re homed that had a very bad reaction to being swapped from raw to kibble. The article linked to does also say no research has been done comparing raw fed and kibble fed or feeding a combination and its effect on the gastric Ph. I'm certainly not making any claims and will repeat what I said before it depends on the individual dog what works for one may not work for another as @Aitch said

I go by how my dogs look and behave. They have a wonderful digestion if fed healthily and are always happy to work and play long and hard.
In the end, you have to do what you feel fits with your dog. Your dog will let you know if it isn't right.

 

[Loraseal]

We fed Hunter purely on Raw in the beginning (the breeder gave us 3 months of RAW food). If travelling we introduce the Kibble before the holidays as well as the Raw. My fridge freezer has broke so H is currently on 100% Kibble. I have noticed that he has HUGE poohs now (they are firm though!) and smell much worse. Also he drinks a lot more.
I think each Dog is different. Balance is important but also the amount you give needs to monitored. If H becomes 1 kg heavier we see problems straight away with his elbows. RAW vs KIBBLE is a very Hot topic and there is no real deep scientific backing and studies. Vets are not animal nutritionists and only have minimal nutrition education when studying to be a Vet. Also the big Kibble companies sponsor the Vet universities. RAW is actually cheaper for us (except when your freezer breaks!). When we visited the UK we found Cotswald RAW which was very good! Personally I prefer RAW. H well.... he eats anything...even golden paste from the spoon!

 

[Boogie]

Neither of my kibble fed dogs have huge poos. They have a scoop of pro-fibre with each meal and their poos are small, firm and kickable.



I’d happily feed raw if I had the freezer space and a place to feed them. But I don’t worry about their diet at all. The kibble is absolutely fine. (Skinners - I’m about to move Tatze to the senior version as she’s not as active as she was). I would be careful about fat content if feeding raw ‘tho, as I know two raw fed dogs who developed pancreatitis. Anecdotal I know, but still worrying

 

[Jennifer]

Like @Boogie I feed Skinners. I use the Salmon and Rice. S&S need a lowish protein diet due to the bladder problems as pups. Since changing a few years ago to Skinners I've found the same as Boogie their poo is small, firm and kickable. I like the idea of feeding raw but as I need to be careful with S&S diet I'm sticking with a kibble that suits them very well. Also I have a feeling war would break out if my two had a big meaty bone. They can fall out over diarrhoea paste if I'm not careful !!!

 

[FayRose]

(I would be careful about fat content if feeding raw ‘tho, as I know two raw fed dogs who developed pancreatitis. Anecdotal I know, but still worrying

What is the suspected cause of the pancreatitis - too much fat?
It is all a bit confusing and worrying. Molly was/is fine on the kibble and veg etc. I was feeding her, my concern being mainly the jammed up anal glands. Her itchiness is now stopping, it has always appeared to be seasonal, just seems to have taken a long time to clear this year.

As for her diet, I am, as mentioned in snowbunny's and others' posts, going to feed as I think appropriate and see how she goes, weight-wise. If she's not doing too well, for whatever reason, it is quickly obvious because her coat loses its shine and starts to look dull and slightly dusty.
So, a mixture of cooked meats (heart, liver etc.), fish which she was getting anyway, some kibble and veg. The only raw I'm trying are eggs and bones, lamb so far because that's all I could get from Morrison's butcher, who kindly chopped some for me though all the while telling me she wouldn't feed her dogs raw ... and why

 

[David]

To be honest I've never given it much thought except so far as avoiding cheap dog food.

Lady has a mix of Burns "fillem up and stop them being fat" kibble and AATU 80% "jet propel them" kibble. When she was working she got 100% AATU kibble.

She also has whatever is going that is left over from evening meals eg broccoli or cauliflower. She loves cucumber and sits next to me when I making salads. Licks out casserole bowls with gusto also yoghurt pots.

She has 2 small size dental sticks a day and a couple of hide chews.

If I'm cleaning pheasant or partridge she gets off-cuts.

Tried raw - I'm sure it's great but couldn't cope with the storage or mess so she has as above and seems fine despite our best efforts to foul up her digestive system (did I mention grass and sheep's pooh? Oh yes the odd cardboard box as well)

 

[snowbunny]

She loves cucumber

Shadow thinks Lady is weird.

 

[Beanwood]

Shadow thinks Lady is weird.

So does Benson...

 

[FayRose]

I feel a lot better about all this after reading your post David

 

[snowbunny]

I feel a lot better about all this after reading your post David

Was it the cucumber that did it?

 

[FayRose]

Certainly helped

 

[Xena Dog Princess]

Our feline overlords are rightly suspicious of the cucumber