Awful "Professional" Training Methods

[snowbunny]

I wasn’t trying to argue that it is equivalent - but that we all have cognitive dissonance when it comes to having pets too. Where to draw the line is also an interesting question.

Maybe it’s an irregular verb?

“I am a dog owner

You use dogs

They are cruel to dogs”

That probably has more truth than any of us would like to admit!

As always, I don't think there's a correct answer. Because let's say, as a thought experiment, we did ban all pets. What would that human race look like? I am pretty sure it would be a whole lot less happy, and a whole lot less kind. What would be the outcome for other animals on the earth, if a large proportion of us didn't have pets at home? I would postulate that, if we weren't able to form bonds with non-human species, then we would rapidly lose our connection to the sentience of animals, and so would dismiss them even more than we currently do.

 

[HAH]

Fascinating mullings, everyone.

Where to draw the line is also an interesting question.

I’d add that this doesn’t seem a static line, but one that moves depending on circumstance and context. The idea of eating a pet seems abhorrent to most people until you’re starving, or killing a pet because you can’t care for it - I remember how shocked I was to learn at school about this happening in London during 2nd World War, as it must have happened all over the world.

I would postulate that, if we weren't able to form bonds with non-human species, then we would rapidly lose our connection to the sentience of animals, and so would dismiss them even more than we currently do.

I’d agree with this entirely, and would add that of the farmers I know, there is a general compassion and care for the animals they farm which - to me - still feels like an important link between growing animals for their meat and products in ‘as good a way as possible’ (acknowledging how imperfect this sentence is) and meeting a current demand.

 

[Cupcase]

While you debate the ethics in eating meat, please consider the hidden misery to the people who work for the growers of our cheap vegetables and fruit. I'm surrounded by dairy and beef farmers and these animals are treated better than the immigrant workers that are exploited to satisfy our wasteful need for cheap fruit and veg.
While in Crete this year, my husband and I got lost in a plastic tent city. I had my eyes opened to how these people exist.
I have also visited Almeria in the south of Spain but never realised the horrific conditions these workers are living in, until I watched an episode of Simon Reeve in the Mediterranean.
So being a vegetarian isn't cruelty free, it's not animals that suffer but humans.

 

[snowbunny]

And herein lies our problem. How much do we have to research and is it even possible to eat cruelty-free, environmentally-friendly, truly sustainable food? Probably not, sadly.

 

[snowbunny]

Actually, I just saw this on Facebook. I think it sums it up pretty well:

"‘To the person who uses metal straws to save fish but consumes animals, I’d like to say thank you. To the vegan who isn’t aware of our homelessness problem, thank you. To the climate change activists who aren’t attentive to fast fashion, thank you. To the girl who gives her old clothes to the disadvantaged but isn’t educated on sex trafficking, thank you. To the guy who picks up rubbish on his way home from a surf but isn’t well-informed about male suicide rates, thank you. To the people who stand up for horse racing concerns but are uninformed of the cruelty of the dairy industry, thank you. To the positive Instagram influencer who hasn’t cultivated a plastic-free lifestyle, thank you. To the grandparents who knit for sick children but aren’t up to date with current race and homophobic issues, thank you. To the students that stand up for bullying but are unaware of the constant domestic violence epidemic, thank you. To the peace activists, feminists, stray dog adopters, teachers, volunteers, foster carers, recyclers, givers, doers and believers, I say thank you. We are all on a different path and we all see through different eyes. Current world issues that you are passionate about, aren’t always what other people are trying to change… and that’s okay. It’s not everyone’s job to save every part of the world but it is everyone’s responsibility to thank every person who is doing THEIR part to save the world. Don’t critique, just appreciate. Don’t judge, just educate. We’re all trying our best. Thank you.’ Carla Borthwick."

 

[Charlie]

Well said 'Carla Borthwick'. Everyone doing their bit is the way forward. Every little bit counts. xx

 

[Candy]

Absolutely! Impossible to take it all on, just be thankful that there are people doing what they can and do the best you realistically can yourself.

 

[snowbunny]

Absolutely! Impossible to take it all on, just be thankful that there are people doing what they can and do the best you realistically can yourself.

So... to go back to the original topic, I really think that’s what most people do. Try to do their best. And when they are told how to best approach something by more experienced people, it’s only normal that they will do that, especially when it’s described in a way that makes sense. It’s not our place to judge the people that have “grown up” this way, and it’s certainly not our place to lecture them, because we are all awful, cruel people to the next person with a cause. And you cannot change the world by telling people they are wrong.

 

[Charlie]

And you cannot change the world by telling people they are wrong.

You can gently suggest change and show them a better way without telling them they are wrong. Planting the seed often reeps better results. xx

 

[Jen]

And you cannot change the world by telling people they are wrong.

Completely agree.

If someone I didn’t know said something about the way I was with Stanley on a walk, I wouldn’t thank them and listen. I’d be fuming!

 

[snowbunny]

You can gently suggest change and show them a better way without telling them they are wrong. Planting the seed often reeps better results. xx

Change is hard. People generally respond very poorly to the suggestion they should change.
In my experience you get better results by showing off the things you do and waiting for them to come to you.

 

[snowbunny]

Completely agree.

If someone I didn’t know said something about the way I was with Stanley on a walk, I wouldn’t thank them and listen. I’d be fuming!

This reminds me of what Alison said about someone telling her Sky shouldn’t be out walking because she was clearly too hot. That came from a place of caring, no doubt, but without all the facts, the only thing it could possibly do would be antagonise the owner. And, when someone feels under attack, you get the backfire effect in full force, strengthening the original position. It’s counterproductive, even when the motives are pure.

 

[Charlie]

In my experience you get better results by showing off the things you do and waiting for them to come to you.

Yes I have found that with some people especially with a friend with three Staffies who I am sorry to say she treated very harshly as she WAS a CM fan. I have been walking with her for years and about a year ago she produced treats from her pocket and told me she had watched me with Hattie and found she gets far better results being kind and rewarding her dogs for their behaviour. Made my day for her dogs sake that they now have a far better life and they looked so much happier. A far cry from the woman that once kicked her dog infront of me I did voice my opinion as I couldn't not. xx

 

[snowbunny]

I used to feel a bit ashamed about using food with my dogs in public, especially after a few people gave me the “bribery” spiel. So I used to be quite secretive about it. I got over that, though, and now I feed them very openly and narrate loudly as I do so when there are people around. Several people in my village (in Andorra) have come up and asked questions about it, which is fab, and even some of those naysayers have asked me for help on dealing with issues. I clearly don’t have all the answers but it’s lovely to know that people DO want to do better by their dogs, they just need to be put in an environment where they can see it’s possible another way - a more fun way! - and to be the ones to strike up the conversation so they feel empowered rather than lectured.

 

[Candy]

My final dissertation for my nursing qualification about a zillion years ago was on 'Empowerment and Disempowerment in Mental Health Nursing'. One of the conclusions I came to was that to heavily discourage a behavior that someone was comfortable with was unlikely to help the person to feel ready to change that behavior. We all need to remember to respect other people's beliefs and comfort zones and Yes! I can be guilty of finding that hard sometimes. With people that is, just sometimes. Never with dogs. They just don't have the same sort of issues. That is probably why they are superior to us in some ways and why we can learn so much from them.OK, I'll shut up now. ( Maybe!)

 

[Candy]

Pee Ess thanks to this lovely and comfortable forum I use treats/ rewards frequently and unashamedly and have the dog who.......don't know quite how to put it... my whole mindset has changed. I was going to say 'Is the best behaved dog I've had so young' but now I think perhaps the dog with whom I have the best understanding. That goes both ways I believe, and is surely more meaningful. Hmm. Bed for us both now! Enough thinking!

 

[Joy]

I agree that confronting people with disapproval is unlikely to change behaviour we find morally unacceptable and I accept that most people (myself included) behave in morally inconsistent ways (such as having pet dogs but eating other animals).
However, I do think that an individual needs to speak out (not necessarily by means of confronting an individual) when they see something that they find morally / ethically objectionable because that is how society evolves and how change happens. By speaking out (by means of raising the subject with friends and acquaintances, posting on social media, organising petitions and campaigns etc) support is garnered for the view and gradually change comes about.
For example, look at the way that within my lifetime homosexuality has gone from being illegal to legal in the UK. If people hadn't had the courage to speak out and find support from others this change would not have happened. I think we can tolerate views that are different from our own, provided no-one is hurt by people holding these views. I don't think for example that we can just say that female genital mutilation is acceptable because it is an ingrained part of some cultures.

On a dog forum such as this I think it's right to say that we find some traininng methods unacceptable. By doing this we are not trying to confront the people who use these methods (because they are unlikely to see the posts) but to build a consensus of opinion on what acceptable dog training and care looks like and then to find effective ways of 'converting' those with opposing views.

 

[Boogie]

I used to feel a bit ashamed about using food with my dogs in public, especially after a few people gave me the “bribery” spiel. So I used to be quite secretive about it. I got over that, though, and now I feed them very openly and narrate loudly as I do so when there are people around. Several people in my village (in Andorra) have come up and asked questions about it, which is fab, and even some of those naysayers have asked me for help on dealing with issues. I clearly don’t have all the answers but it’s lovely to know that people DO want to do better by their dogs, they just need to be put in an environment where they can see it’s possible another way - a more fun way! - and to be the ones to strike up the conversation so they feel empowered rather than lectured.

I’d love to hear your narrations.

I have a simple answer to the bribery question - “No, it’s a reward, he gets it after he’s done what I ask. If I showed him the treat first it would be either luring if the action was new, or bribery if it wasn’t.”

I know, as Tatze was consistently bribed by me as a pup and still has quite a ‘show me the money’ attitude!
.

 

[kateincornwall]

I am also an advocate of the Lead ( and learn ) by example ethos . The Labradoodle ( the crazy gang ) owners would look in amazement when I blew my whistle and rewarded Reubs with a dried sprat and eventually asked me why I did it . I replied that I didnt like my dog ranging too far from me , and that he associated the cue, be it whistle, verbal or hand signals , with doing my bidding and having much praise and a fish . No comment from them , but then two days ago , guess who had a whistle round their neck ?

 

[Cupcase]

I have the living proof of how well the reward system works. Cupar. He is the first dog I am confident in my training preferences and it shows.
Cupar immediately goes to the fridge after every recall in the garden or house, he goes to the the fridge as soon as we have cut his nails, he is the first of my dogs to have such an excellent recall, he's the first to allow nail cutting, ear cleaning and his leave it, in or outside the house is 100%. Today he had a grass seed in his eye and he allowed me to hold open his eye, while I flushed water in it. We had a party with that achievement. I pay handsomely, he deserves it.
If I had kept Cupar locked in a cage for hours on end and hadn't spent time building his trust, none of this would have been possible.