Bear's tummy troubles

[Natalie]

Almost since we've had Bear, he's had an on and off runny tummy. In the past three months he's been to the vet four times; firstly they said he had some inflammation (colitis) and he had a short course of antibiotics, which worked temporarily. Then we dropped off a stool sample, and it came back with campylobacter, as well as hook work and round worm, despite the fact we had used puppy drontal three times by the time he was six months. At this stage, the vet was adamant it wasn't a food intolerance issue. So he got a stronger worm treatment, which he's had three courses of. Last weeks stool sample has come back completely negative, so no bacteria or worms. This is good, but he still has the runs almost daily, and sometimes it's quite bad.
We are doing one more, longer course of antibiotics, to reduce inflammation more than anything else, but I'm going to have to switch his food, I think, and a different vet I spoke to this morning was in agreement with me.
He's currently on Eden, which I think is a really good food , normally, but it does have chicken in it. His evening Forthglade is a mix of all types of meat.

Do you think that Fish4dogs would be a sensible switch for him - I think they do treats and wet food as well as kibble ? This would simultaneously rule out chicken and beef as ingredients, as well as any wheat / grain he gets in gravybones.

The good thing is, he is absolutely fine in himself, loads of energy, though his weight gain has plateaued a bit, he's probably only put on a kilo in October.

 

[Natalie]

I should also add, as maybe it's related, Bear doesn't smell great. He has a glossy thick coat, but it's a bit pongy, sort of like sour milk or strong cheese. Just quite musky, whereas Monty smells lovely. .
He's not itchy but will often jump around to bite a patch on his rear legs (it's not fleas). This would also be a potential food intolerance issue, I think?

 

[Jessica]

I've never tried the Fish4Dogs kibble or wet food though have considered it. Moving to a fish-based kibble helped Jess when she was a puppy, after a similar run of tummy issues. Brodie also smells very different to Jess, much doggier and musky as you say with Bear. Even when they are on the same food. I just put it down to their natural doggie pheromones but maybe there is more to it.

 

[Natalie]

just put it down to their natural doggie pheromones but maybe there is more to it.

Yes, I thought it was just an individual thing but now I'm not sure. Bear is obviously still intact and Monty isn't, but I think Bear is to young for that to be a factor yet.

 

[Ashley]

Have you tried probiotics at all? That helped with Quinn's gut issues a lot. I also use Slippery Elm for acute diarrhea, but would be hesitant to give to a puppy I think. I don't think it would hurt to change him to a different food with a single protein and see how he does, but if he did have worms/issues then it might just be a case of getting his gut settled after antibiotics. The vet prescribed purina forti flora for Quinn a few times over the years, and was recommended after she was on antibiotics, but I had more success with a natural one I found (unfortunately likely not available in the UK).

 

[Foxy Lady]

sorry can't really help - I mainly feed raw but do use the fish4dogs kibble as "treats" - the small bite is nice for "scatters" and hunt training and to have in your pocket for instant rewards (raw is not sooooo good for that!!)

 

[Lisa]

When previous dog had tummy troubles and itchy feet we switched from a chicken-based diet to lamb and rice and the problems stopped. Would definitely give that a try. Sounds like he’s had a few issues going on so it might take a bit longer for his tummy to heal but I would give it a try.

 

[Jacqui-S]

There is something about processed chicken, isn't there? Raw or home cooked may be okay, just not in kibble.
I hope you find something that suits, but would also go with a single protein product.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Millies wolfheart helped sort out Rory's colitis. I tried various foods and this was the best . His tum is developing but not adult so he will improve, but avoid Chicken. The anti biotics help with a one problem but create another as they dont let his gut flora develop, get some probiotics and profibre they do help. They help him slow his gut down and improve his gut health. At 7 months his boy dog super powers are Definitely in action. They can develop a different smell but this doesn't sound like Bears smell oh and things get a bit spermy soon. I fell over today so I'm tired and grumpy sorry if I sound bossy, I'm not just exhausted

 

[FayRose]

Our old spaniel Alfie had camplyabacter (sp?) only finally diagnosed when he was well over a year and he'd had the squits almost from day 1. We re-homed him by the way from a family member when he was 7, so we weren't involved in the early days.

It took almost another year to clear him of it, multiple doses of antibiotics, he tested clear, then a week or so later, tested positive again.. I'm saying this because, although Bear seems to be clear of the 'bug' it may still be lurking if he's still 'squitty'.

I hope you get him sorted and on the right grub for him, fingers crossed, dear little chap x

 

[Natalie]

Thanks all for your replies, this is annoying as I thought it was a diet thing from day 1 but I had to go down all the other routes first. I've ordered some samples from fish4 dogs , but in the meantime I am cooking him some whitefish, broccoli and sweet potato to have for a few days, and he can have monty's kibble (salmon and rice) as training treats. It's not a complete diet, (i'm not going to add the calcium supplements like I used to do with Monty's home cooked) but starts the process of removing all chicken, beef, lamb, turkey etc. and I think this wouldn't hurt for a few days.

I'm now wondering whether to get the next round of anti biotics at all and whether to find a pro-biotic instead. Is this the same stuff that comes from the vets in a twisty tube with a dial to measure about the doses? I completely forget the name of it.

I'm not overly worries, like @FayRose experience we had this with Monty and giardia, so I know there's light at the end of the tunnel, but it's frustrating while it happens.

It took almost another year to clear him of it, multiple doses of antibiotics, he tested clear, then a week or so later, tested positive again.. I'm saying this because, although Bear seems to be clear of the 'bug' it may still be lurking if he's still 'squitty'.

thanks, it's worth us considering a retest if it doesn't improve
@SwampDonkey - I'll see what Millie's wolfheart do in sample packs. I am loathe to buy big bags- currently got £100 worth of Eden kibble sitting in the garage

 

[Stacia]

My last Lab was like Bear and finally a different vet diagnosed an infection of the lower bowel and with the right antibiotics he got well and never looked back. I feed Arden Grange Lamb and Rice and very happy with it.

 

[Beanwood]

Considering all the interventions ( medications), to date his age, and probably a bit of chronic inflammation it might be worth switching to a single protein food, this should help soothe and relax his digestive tract. Avoid Chicken and beef recipes for now, only because the evidence points to them being more likely to cause problems, although hydrolysed versions of protein are a bit different, you find these in formulations for sensitive tums.

Probiotics will help, but get one recommended for dogs, I think @Selina27 uses a great one, just can't remember the name right now! I have also used it with good effect.

Suggestions have been fish4dogs, my crew love it, and I use it for treats as well. They do a fab range of fishy treats you can try!

Fish 4 Dogs salmon puppy

Butternut do a nice fish based home cooked food, you can opt for white fish as a single protein. If you want to try, let me know and you can have a 50% voucher ( I get one too! )

Butternut menus

 

[Natalie]

My last Lab was like Bear and finally a different vet diagnosed and infection of the lower bowel and with the right antibiotics he got well and never looked back. I feed Arden Grange Lamb and Rice and very happy with it.

that's interesting, as everything I talked through with the vet today, she said indicated a lower bowel issue.

 

[Selina27]

, I think @Selina27 uses a great one, just can't remember the name right now! I have also used it with good effect.

I use PetPlus for Cassie, but not for runny tummy issues, it was recommended as part of the plan to improve her gut health to help reduce scavenging.

Whether it's suitable for Bear or not the website makes quite interesting reading anyhow PET Plus Is A Natural Food Supplement Made For Cats And Dogs

 

[SteffiS]

Yes, I thought it was just an individual thing but now I'm not sure. Bear is obviously still intact and Monty isn't, but I think Bear is to young for that to be a factor yet.

Toffee is intact, he doesn’t have any distinctive musky smell - in fact he smells a lot better than Ripple and he’s been neutered.

 

[Natalie]

So, following some of your suggestions - thank you - we have started a diet switch and already noticed an improvement.

Since Tuesday, Bear has had home cooked white fish, sweet potato and broccoli, (fish at least 60 with a later addition of some white rice on thursday to add some bulk as he seemed especially ravenous. We have samples of Fish4dogs and Millie's Wolfheart on the way, which includes treats and wet food, but of course there's delivery delays due to lockdown.

As training treats, I'm using Monty's adult salmon and rice kibble, which he loves. I'm aware this isn't a full balanced diet for a (slowly, now) growing puppy, and I could add in the calcium supplements I used to give Monty's home cooked food, but these contain a mix of all sorts of animal derivatives. I hope that a week to ten days of calming down his digestive system is worth the pay off of limited ingredients.

The results: Significantly firmer poos - not perfect, but so much better, and averaging three a day rather than four. His terrible, terrible wind which was so vile last week has all but disappeared. He's drinking a bit less water - I think this is a good thing, I always worried he drank too much. His coat is still a bit smelly, but maybe this will take time - assuming it's related. He may just have his own special enchanting musk

The vets have posted out the ABs, but I'm not sure we will use them now. I'll take a look at that supplement @Selina27 and @Beanwood mentioned though. And, we haven't even been super strict with this - I've mistakenly given Bear a handful of his old kibble, and he's had a few gravy bones which are chicken / beef. But, fingers crossed, it looks like switching his main meals over to fish and veg, has already shown an improvement. I'm scared at the thought this might actually give him more energy.

 

[Beanwood]

That's good news!
In the same position I would go more for Fish4dogs puppy than Millies Wolfheart. The reason being if Bear is going to be a fairly big adult dog you may want to think about a food more geared towards slow growth, this is where Fish4Dogs might be better. I do also like the sample packs that Fish4Dogs send out, ours love them as treats! I have also noticed that ours are hungrier on the fish formulations of MW, I don't quite know why. I have switched over their kibble to Fish4Dogs for now. They get raw or home cooked in the evenings.

Don't worry about adding calcium, less is much better than too much for a young growing puppy.

I'm scared at the thought this might actually give him more energy.

Hehe! You might find that Bear has a different sort of energy, I know that sounds strange. Sometimes if you are dealing with an on-going mild discomfort, especially anything related to the gut, it can make you irritable and tired, and you don't think straight, same with dogs. Neurotransmitter activity is also affected if the gut is a bit hectic. Yes he may have energy, but hopefully he will have a better head too!

 

[Natalie]

Don't worry about adding calcium, less is much better than too much for a young growing puppy.

thanks, I feel better about his temporary diet now. I actually like cooking for them, I only stopped in lockdown when it seemed a bit of a luxury. When Bear is fully grown I may well go back to this for both of them for an evening meal, though of course they may both be getting just fish.

Yes he may have energy, but hopefully he will have a better head too!

See post on doggy brags- you could be right!

more for Fish4dogs puppy than Millies Wolfheart.

I bought more F4D thank MW - simply due to the price of samples - I was (probably) going to use MW kibble as a different treat for streaming training , and the F4D for everything else - I'll see how it goes, but thanks for the comment about slow growth - I feel guilty he's now the smallest of the litter, but conversely this may not be a bad thing? I think one of the pups is already nearly 6 kilos heavier than Bear.

 

[Natalie]

(fish at least 60

Ha not sure what happened there - was meant to say 60% ... !