Challenging night

Karen

Karen

Hello all,

I was hoping that my first post would be about loose lead walking or something training related but in the event, it is about refusing to stay in her pen last night.
We have a pen and crate set up in the kitchen/diner. The night time strategy is generally that she gets some kibble thrown in the crate when we go to bed, we say goodnight, turn out the lights and she stays in either crate (door open) or pen (door closed) until about 5:30-6am. This has worked for the past 4 weeks or so (before that she was up every hour and we had to sleep downstairs with her - we solved that one by changing her last feed time from the breeders 9:45pm to the trainers suggested 4:30 pm. We also changed her kibble from Country dog (loads of enormous poos every few hours) to Markus Muhler beef (poos getting better but not there yet in terms of consistency).

Last night she refused to stay in the pen, jumped up at the gate and was obviously not happy. We had been for a short village walk at 6ish after a very early dinner for us , came back and went into the living room to try to see if we could get her to settle in there (so far we have little success with this). She ate a dried rabbit ear, I gave her a few treats on her mat (we have previously tried treat streaming onto the mat which has worked twice before but mostly after an hour she is still alert and waiting for a treat). So we gave up on the living room as she was very bites, I came back to the kitchen with her and took her out into the garden a few times - inbetween she was in the pen as I figured that she needed sleep. She was intermittently sleeping and digging at the crate - after each digging session we went out in the garden. Eventually, just before bed she did an enormous poo and we thought all was fine until she refused to stay in the pen and was very agitated. We sat with her for a few hours and then at 11:30, I sat in the pen with her for an hour in the hope that I could climb out and sleep next to the pen on the floor. After an hour it became apparent that she would wake up the instant I stood up. Eventually we both slept on the sofa cushions on the floor - she had one cushion, I had 2!

we really need to get her happy with the pen as it is our only means of making her sleep during the day. As I write she is in the pen with a licki mat and I will open the door as soon as she has finished.

A further bit of background info….she had her anal glands expressed at the vets on Friday as she has been biting her flank and tail a lot. Vet said they were full. She has also been doing very short wees - he said that could be related. So we obviously need to change her food again.

so very sorry for the essay ….I am not awake enough to summarise!
Any thoughts on what is going on will be much appreciated ! She is also teething which may also be related!
 
kateincornwall

kateincornwall

Location
Cornwall , UK
Sorry to hear of your woes with Cassie . Maybe the Vet visit has really upset her , they are such sensitive souls and dont take kindly to something like this happening especially as her anal glands were so full. Teething , oh its horrible for them and for us too , little crocodiles they are but this will pass although it seems endless at the time . Some owners find that freezing a kong can help to ease the pain ? Try to stick to your usual routine , I know its hard when they test us like this xxx
 
Jacqui-S

Jacqui-S

Moderator
Location
Fife, Scotland
Sounds stressful 😬

Every dog is different and sometimes it's trial and error.
Lilly LOVED a crate. But Sully takes more persuading. Other dogs on the forum never got on with them but thrived in a pen.

My question is whether the crate is covered, is it "cave like" enough, that always helped for us (and a frozen kong at crate time was always a winner).

When Sully goes to bed his crate is completely covered, and he had a low volume radio on ("Alexa play soothing dog music"). Works for him.
 
Jacqui-S

Jacqui-S

Moderator
Location
Fife, Scotland
Another thing is to try not to let her out when she is making a big fuss, try to wait until she quietens, otherwise you are reinforcing to her that if she makes a fuss she gets something.
This is definitely hard when you are just getting to know your pup and their toileting needs, you don't want to not let them out when in actual fact they need a poop or pee....
 
Karen

Karen

The crate is covered except for the front (door open). It could be a knock on effect from the vet visit - I think cortisol levels take a few days to come down (although she seemed ok at the time).
Music is a good idea - it has been windy and the kitchen has large patio windows which creak a bit in high winds.
 
JES72

JES72

Location
SW London UK
I feel your frustration and lack of sleep. Any consolation, we had a horrible time trying to get Stanly to sleep through the night in his crate. I think I noted most of it on Stanly's thread (Mr Stanley Blue). He started off well but then when he upgraded to a bigger grate it all went wrong and he would not settle through the night in his crate. It took many months of disrupetd sleep. We finally came to a compromise - Stanley goes to his crate at bed time, then between midnight and 3am he wakes up, whines or barks, is let out to go outside, then comes upstairs with us. He moves between his bed next to ours, on our bed , or on the floor in the hall throughout the night.
 
Karen

Karen

JES72 said:
I feel your frustration and lack of sleep. Any consolation, we had a horrible time trying to get Stanly to sleep through the night in his crate. I think I noted most of it on Stanly's thread (Mr Stanley Blue). He started off well but then when he upgraded to a bigger grate it all went wrong and he would not settle through the night in his crate. It took many months of disrupetd sleep. We finally came to a compromise - Stanley goes to his crate at bed time, then between midnight and 3am he wakes up, whines or barks, is let out to go outside, then comes upstairs with us. He moves between his bed next to ours, on our bed , or on the floor in the hall throughout the night.
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It is a consolation to know that we are not alone - sending sympathy to you. :heart:
 
MellowYellow

MellowYellow

I am a failed crate trainer... Poppy loved the crate and used it from day one, but Merlin HATED it and howled and dug and tried to climb out until in the end after six weeks of little sleep we caved and from then on he just slept happily in his bed... As Jac says, every dog is different and you just have to hang in there until you find out what works for you and Cassie.

One thing is for sure - we are hear to listen to you and to help in any way we can! You are not alone!
 
Karen

Karen

Thank you @MellowYellow. That is good to know. How did toilet training go on once Merlin was out of the crate? Cassie is pretty good now but our kitchen/diner is quite big and I suspect toilet training may take a hit if she can’t rattle the pen door to signal that I need to let her out. The pen in particular is a life saver when she gets too bitey and needs a sleep - I don’t know how we would cope without that (she’s not good at knowing when she needs a sleep - unsurprisingly I guess). We just came back from a trip to a national trust place and I risked putting her in the pen for a snooze and so far she is asleep ok - we are sitting here holding our breath😀
 
HAH

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
Hi Karen - you’re not alone, and you’re not doing anything wrong. We persevered with a crate for far too long with Kipper, and so with Stilton we had a pen and crate set-up which was a lot better. You’re sensitive to Cassie’s needs, and clearly you’re tuned into her which - in my humble opinion - is the most importantly thing in building a strong relationship. This is more important than loose lease walking, recall, anything else so you’re doing really well.
She’s had a few changes recently with the vet visit, gland expressing, late poo, and the windy weather so a bit of disruption is not surprising. It’s easy to say but try not to get hooked up on one or two bad evenings, it sounds like the general trend is good. If you can keep consistent and a clear bedtime routine to signal to Cassie what’s coming, this will all help. And keep talking to us here because you’re not alone!
 
Karen

Karen

HAH said:
Hi Karen - you’re not alone, and you’re not doing anything wrong. We persevered with a crate for far too long with Kipper, and so with Stilton we had a pen and crate set-up which was a lot better. You’re sensitive to Cassie’s needs, and clearly you’re tuned into her which - in my humble opinion - is the most importantly thing in building a strong relationship. This is more important than loose lease walking, recall, anything else so you’re doing really well.
She’s had a few changes recently with the vet visit, gland expressing, late poo, and the windy weather so a bit of disruption is not surprising. It’s easy to say but try not to get hooked up on one or two bad evenings, it sounds like the general trend is good. If you can keep consistent and a clear bedtime routine to signal to Cassie what’s coming, this will all help. And keep talking to us here because you’re not alone!
Click to expand...
Thank you so much! Nearly made me cry!:heart:
 
MellowYellow

MellowYellow

Karen said:
Thank you @MellowYellow. That is good to know. How did toilet training go on once Merlin was out of the crate? Cassie is pretty good now but our kitchen/diner is quite big and I suspect toilet training may take a hit if she can’t rattle the pen door to signal that I need to let her out. The pen in particular is a life saver when she gets too bitey and needs a sleep - I don’t know how we would cope without that (she’s not good at knowing when she needs a sleep - unsurprisingly I guess). We just came back from a trip to a national trust place and I risked putting her in the pen for a snooze and so far she is asleep ok - we are sitting here holding our breath😀
Click to expand...
I have to say that Merlin didn't mind the crate during the day, and in fact it helped him calm down during his wild evening phase (hint: his nickname was Maelstrom...); it was just overnight he hated being shut in there. Not being in the crate overnight had no effect on toilet training at all - by the time we gave in he was already fine to hang on overnight.

Look, as others have said, this is a tricky time for you - it's a bit like having a newborn baby in the house. It seems overwhelming and all-consuming, and feels like you are stuck in this vortex for ever... but of course you are not. In a few weeks things will really start to sort themselves out. Hang in there!!!
 
Kelsey

Kelsey

Hugo had no problem with the crate during the day, but at night he fussed until I moved it right outside my bedroom. I think him being able to see/smell/hear me better helped a lot. (I would have moved it right into my bedroom but I didn’t have the space) As soon as he was house broken I let him choose between the crate or his doggy bed on the floor, and he always chose the dog bed, or the rug. That didn’t affect his crate time during the day at all- I had to pop him in the crate while I went to work and he had zero issues with it 🙂

Like said above, this too shall pass! 😍
 
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