Fence- running

[Shamas mom]

I have an idea..and I want to sound board

It's one of my 3am insomnia concepts, so it's a work in progress. Here goes.

Dogs fence-run because they both think they own the fence.

So what if I own the fence in that part of the yard?

What if I install a short fence from the end of Tiko's yard, to my porch...effectively creating a "buffer zone" and claim that as my space. ?

Think Dog Park entry way.

So you'd come into my yard, and there'd be a little yard, then a big yard. The little yard is mine- I keep my Garbage cans, and other things Shamas isn't allowed to play with there. Shamas' scent markers would subside, and he'd set new ones at the new fence line.

Sure, the neighbors' dogs would still go in the neighbor's yard....but the neighbor's yard would no longer neighbor Shamas' yard. Because I have laid claim to that part. It's no-dog's land


Comments, opinions. please start here

 

[Candy]

Worth a try I'd say!

 

[Oberon]

Sounds worth a go for sure! At the very least a bit more distance and the lack of a common fence line will help, even if it may not have much to do with who ‘owns’ that area. Modifying the environment is always a great option to try.

 

[Shamas mom]

who ‘owns’ that area

That'll be a lay-over from the hundreds of hours of Ceaser Milan that I watched when I first got him. He was big on laying claim to space that the dog was causing a ruckus over as a way to stop the behavior

 

[Jessica]

I think we did this! We (ahem, my husband) built an extra fence to put a bit of space between Jess and the nasty dog next door. Our gardens only overlap in one corner so we fenced off that corner with a solid wooden fence to ensure at least a couple of metres distance between the dogs at all points.

It didn't help for us, sadly. The new fence just became the new boundary and was still a trigger point for Jess and the dog next door.

(Not sure if I've understood your suggestion correctly, ignore this if not!)

 

[Shamas mom]

Does this help?

 

[Shamas mom]

Does this help?View attachment 22139

@Jessica it looks as though we have the same idea. Only I have the mean dog. So I'm a little more in control of the situation????

But I was so frustrated with the whole thing that I ACTUALLY considered an invisible fence as an option, 3 feet from the fence. As though that wouldn't just cause a negative association and exacerbate things!

 

[Jessica]

Your proposal is better than ours as it is a much bigger buffer space and also allows for that space to have its own identity - for YOU to use it and hopefully delineate it from next-door's territory. It is worth a try.

Ours was just a case of boxing off the corner of the fence as there was a small gap at the fence that was just wide enough for next door's dog to get his nose really close. If we let Jess out she would immediately run to that corner of the garden, and if Ziggy next door was there there would be lots of barking and scrabbling from both of them.

In that corner of our garden we have a huge and very very thorny tree (actually a shrub - pyrocantha - but it is about 15ft high ) so I was worried about Jess getting thorns in her paws too. So we fenced off both the shrub and the area of fence that overlapped with next door's garden. We did that quite early on, but the dogs had already associated that area with each other, so it didn't seem to make any difference - Jess will still run to that corner and bark as soon as she comes into the garden. I tried lots of things to associate the other dog with treats etc but none of it worked. The only thing that did work was to scatter treats before letting her into the garden so that when she first went out she would sniff to find the treats and not immediately think of next door's dog. That really worked well for her (but didn't work for Brodie, who unfortunately has picked up Jess's old habit of racing round the back of the garden and up to that corner. Even though we didn't actually let her or him do it very often!)

 

[Charlie]

When we rescued Charlie he would run the perimeter of our garden every single time he was let out, no other dogs just the running. I spent months and months with him on a long lead training him to 'follow' me, keeping him focused on me, treats, toys, games. Gradually I dropped the lead, eventually I removed the long lead put him on a normal lead, then dropped it then removed it, he stayed with me looking for games, treats etc. He sometimes does but it's not a problem as I can now give him an alternative. We have moved house and unfortunately there are 4 aggressive border collies next door who roam free, always running at our gate barking and bearing their teeth whilst my dogs are in their own garden. Again, I have spent a long time recalling Charlie away to play a game or a scatter of treats for a 'find it' game or to walk with me around another part of the garden. All is working really well, he responds quickly, sometimes before he runs to the gate. You could try the fencing method just to give it a go, but I personally think it's going to be down to training and switching Shamas focus off the dog on to you. Hard I know, it can be done. Just my thoughts. xxx

 

[Shamas mom]

I'm not forgoing training- It's just that Shamas' attention can't be broken once his nose hits the fence. Not by treats, whistles, squeakers, calling him...nothing.

The purpose of the buffer zone is to keep him where I can spot him easily from the kitchen, and redirect him if he gets tense.

 

[Charlie]

I know you're not forgoing training, you do a great job. I wonder if Shamas is already getting to the buffer zone and you are in the kitchen, he is already self rewarding by getting to the fence because you're not with him to act swiftly to redirect. To me the purpose is not to let him get to the fence so accompanying him at all times is essential. It will be interesting to see if the buffer zone works xx

 

[Shamas mom]

Oh any dog he barks at is self-rewarding lol

He barks at dogs from in the car and they go away...well of course, we're driving past them

He barks at the dogs in the neighbors's yard and I call him inside. Or they call theirs in. Either way, they get seperated. Sometimes, he barks on his WAY inside, rewarding his own bark LOL. Then he looks to me to reward him for coming in away from the other dog

The one that's not self-rewarding anymore is the front window. the only thing he gets for barking at the front window is told to get down.

 

[Charlie]

The one that's not self-rewarding anymore is the front window. the only thing he gets for barking at the front window is told to get down.

So he used to bark in the front window? x

 

[Oberon]

It’s impossible to be present constantly to prevent these inherently rewarding behaviours. That’s why managing the environment to reduce the opportunities for barking, the intensity of the contact and/or the distance of the target (the other dog) is a sensible step to take.

Also, you have to pick your battles. Some things you decide to live with to some degree...

 

[Charlie]

It’s impossible to be present constantly to prevent these inherently rewarding behaviours.

I just remember being advised on the forum when Charlie ran the perimeter to never let him out alone as that was reinforcing his behaviour. I know it wasn't about barking at a dog but it was an awful habit that used to upset me. I took that advice onboard. It was hard but it proved in the long run to be the best way forward. I hope the buffer zone works for Shamas x

 

[Oberon]

Glad you were able to resolve it, Helen. It is not easy, as you know!

 

[Charlie]

@Oberon Charlie's not perfect but that's fine by me, I never wanted perfection. Dealing with the dog in front of you and doing whatever works is the best way. xx

 

[Atemas]

Even though we didn't actually let her or him do it very often!)

This is the irritating thing about all this fence stuff. We have never ever let Red out in our garden without one of us being there with her yet she just associates the fence now with the snarling dogs from behind the bottom fence, even when those dogs are not out. You can see her tense up and the slightest noise, she will rush at the fence barking. Recently another neighbours fence on one side of our garden but butts up to the bottom fence, has come loose and has flapped/banged in the wind. In the dark early morning, that has set her off. I do get dispirited about it as I have spent the last 3 summers never truly relaxing in my own garden and constantly training Red. Red was becoming very responsive last summer and we could head off her reactivity. This winter has left me less optimistic. I don‘t see a buffer zone as being effective as I have considered doing that here. I concluded she’d just rush at the buffer fence on hearing the snarling. It’s like they get programmed - learned behaviour. Good luck @Shamas mom if you decide to go for the buffer zone - let us know how it goes. I do think training is the key but it’s hard to always be doing it (I will however continue). I’d just like the snarling dogs to go away or for the owner to do as we do, always be outside with her dogs and also to stop them snarling. Are your neighbours friendly @Shamas mom? What do they say? I’d dearly love to work with my neighbour but she has mental health problems and has upset other neighbours big time in the past. She can also be verbally abusive which is totally unacceptable.

 

[Jessica]

This is the irritating thing about all this fence stuff. We have never ever let Red out in our garden without one of us being there with her yet she just associates the fence now with the snarling dogs from behind the bottom fence, even when those dogs are not out. You can see her tense up and the slightest noise, she will rush at the fence barking. Recently another neighbours fence on one side of our garden but butts up to the bottom fence, has come loose and has flapped/banged in the wind. In the dark early morning, that has set her off. I do get dispirited about it as I have spent the last 3 summers never truly relaxing in my own garden and constantly training Red. Red was becoming very responsive last summer and we could head off her reactivity. This winter has left me less optimistic. I don‘t see a buffer zone as being effective as I have considered doing that here. I concluded she’d just rush at the buffer fence on hearing the snarling. It’s like they get programmed - learned behaviour.

This is very very similar to our experience with Jess. I think @Charlie's approach of always using a lead and combining that with games and training to redirect attention is probably what I will try to do going forward as even though our problem dog next door has moved on, Jess and Brodie have unfortunately both learned bad habits that I would like to fix so that we can enjoy the garden. It will be much easier to train them when Ziggy isn't likely to come out and disrupt things - in the past I would feel that I was making progress and then the dogs would hear each other and we would go back to square one.

 

[Shamas mom]

So he used to bark in the front window? x

Yes, when we got him, he would alert me to everything. The window thing was so bad that we have lived with the drapes closed for 3 years. Only this year are we starting to leave them open again. He was going on alert at any noise on the street, and aggressive at dogs walking by. He lived in such insecurity that he felt the need to secure the space that was his. The only way we could calm him down was to shut the outside world right out...or he couldn't eat or sleep.

we also had to keep him from the front hall to prevent him from guarding the door. After retraining there, now he will alert me, and sit to wait for me to open it. But only I or another human are allowed to the actual door. This is my idea with the gate. Only myself or other humans can get to the gate. area. SO if the neighbors dogs bark from there, I can do what I did to train him in the front hall- check on the disturbance and send him to go play, happy to have done his job

Are your neighbours friendly @Shamas mom? What do they say?

The neighbors are pretty good. The son with the dog is the "let them run, they'll sort it out between them" type-he thinks I'm silly for trying to manage the behavior...ar at least he did until he got a puppy. Now he is of the opinion that if Shamas does anything to the puppy he'll "end him". Bob has also been very good, but he's in a wheelchair, and Tiko is also dog-reactive. Plus Shamas has been an !@#$ to him since day one...so he screams at the fence the second Bob lets him outside, whether Shamas is there or not.

The neighbors on the other side have watched with interest over the last 3 years. They DID build a better fence when I expressed my concern that Shamas might go under their rusty old 4' fence to get their cats. But they are good about him. Their son checks in on our progress regularly. I already have a buffer built in on the other side of the porch, from the fence to the porch, to allow quick movement of cats under the fence and through the flowerbeds to under the porch. From there, they travel through what would be the new buffer zone, to the next yard over