Is it possible to introduce an older dog into the home with a react dog?

[Cupcase]

Sorry for the long title but I could do with advice please.

My OH helps a farmer out, he's elderly and he is back in hospital again. Each time he's been taken to hospital my OH takes his dog to the local kennels.

However it's looking like this gentleman may need to move into care. My OH is concerned about the dog. Having discussed with my OH, we would both like her to come here. She's a lovely German Shepherd of about 9 or 10 years old. The first time he went into hospital, I insisted that the dog stayed overnight in our house, rather than at home alone, until she could be put into the kennels. So both Cupar and Cassie have met her.

Cupar didn't react in the way I expected him to but I could see he wasn't comfortable with her. ( She slept in our front room and was only introduced by walking together outside, with all dogs on leads.) So he has seen her but that's as far as I've went.

Is it possible for a reactive dog to be comfortable with a new older dog coming into the home?
If it is, how do I go about all the dogs being safe around each other?

I'm not new to introducing rescue dogs to the household dogs but I've never had a dog who disliked other dogs before.

Any advice much appreciated.

 

[Jacqui-S]

Good for you even considering this.
I guess it's one step at a time, but I really have no experience.
Hopefully the GS will find a lovely home wherever x

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Poor older girl and her owner, it's very kind of you to think about adopting her.

My older fosters have generally slotted in quite easily. For example Mama Jodhi came into my house as a foster when I had my devil dog toy poodle who was reactive to pretty much everything. However he adored her instantly, so not similar to your situation with Cupar.

I think @snowbunny may have had some challenges when she briefly introduced @Aitch 's Alex to her crew in Spain - maybe she'd have some advice.

 

[Atemas]

I don’t have any experience of this but if you are able to do it - what a lovely thing for the GSD to be taken in by people who care about her. I know my experience with dear gentle Sky and the new croco pup Red is totally different but we kept them separate which we had the space to do. A gradual getting together when we were both around using their mats and a kong each. Might this strategy be worth considering?

 

[snowbunny]

Probably the situation with Ginny is more similar to your situation. Shadow just did NOT like Alex, and we didn't resolve that one in the short time we had. But we did work through the same "HATE YOU WANT TO KILL YOU" when we brought Squidge in, so it is possible.

It sounds far less like that with Cupar, though, and more like what we had with Ginny. Shadow took a while to be totally comfortable, but there was no active aggression towards her. A couple of times he snapped at her when there was high-value food around, mainly because she had (has!) no manners in that situation, so we had to learn what situations to avoid.

I agree with @Atemas that giving them both a lot of space from on another is really important in the early days, and especially in those trigger situations. Don't allow any high energy in an enclosed space, as that can boil over into something less pleasant. So, no bustling towards you on greetings, plenty of distance between both you and the dogs, and between the dogs themselves while you prepare their food. Feeding in different areas.
Off-leash walks together, or time together in the garden, are great for building confidence in one another without any pressure to interact: I think it's very easy for us to try to work on dogs being "together", when it's often best just to let them "be" in an open space where they're not interacting. They will be watching each other and learning their body language.

Obviously when you can't supervise, separate them until you're very comfortable with them being together. Baby gates, if you have the space, are great for the same "being together but with no pressure to interact" learning.

It's a wonderful, wonderful thing you're doing, but try not to feel trapped in a situation if it doesn't work out. You can only try your best, and it sounds like you have every chance of making it work, but if it turns out not to be the case, then make sure you have a pre-thought-out plan of what you're going to do.

A little story of my reactive boy from yesterday. This is the boy who will can go for any dog who looks sideways at him in the wrong way. Yesterday, I sat on the sofa. Immediately, Squidge jumped up on my right, and Shadow on my left. Ginny then jumped right on top of Shadow and shoved him out the way to get to me. My poor boy just got up and moved, looking really sad, but not in the least bit snappy. I called him onto my lap and gave him the biggest cuddles, and we had discussions about the old lady's lack of manners. It's not something I would have ever imagined, him being shoved around by a dog we had brought in to the family, and just taking it!

 

[Cath]

I have no experience of this, but I think it is wonderful of you both to think of taking her into your home. Good Luck.

 

[Cupcase]

@snowbunny thankyou for this, I have always wondered about how you managed to get Shadow to a place where he could live with other dogs. I think Shadow and Cupar are very similar. Cupar dislikes puppies and he is getting better walking near some dogs without any reaction.
Did you use a muzzle on Shadow when introducing either Ginny or Squidge? How long did it take Shadow to become comfortable around either dog? Sorry lots of questions.
This is not going to happen immediately but I would like to prepare the house if or when she comes to live here. My OH and I believe that the gentleman has two reasons for not wanting to go into a care home and one is his dog, he did say there is a care home that allows you to take your dog with you but I'm skeptical, practically I don't think its possible but I could be wrong.

On a temporary basis, she could sleep in the front room, which has access to outside without seeing Cupar and Cassie but that's only possible for a short time.
I already have a DOG gate between the sitting room and the kitchen, which is used regularly, especially when I have visitors. So they could be separate but able to see each other. I can make her permanent sleeping arrangements in the front room but it would only be possible as long as all dogs can be in the same room together when one of us is with them. Although ideally I would prefer if they slept in the same part of the house. My dogs get to choose where they sleep, they have their own beds but also access to the sitting room and the sofa.

 

[snowbunny]

Did you use a muzzle on Shadow when introducing either Ginny or Squidge? How long did it take Shadow to become comfortable around either dog?

I didn't use a muzzle because he wasn't comfortable in one at that point, and I wouldn't have wanted to add any more stress to the situation. Now, I would have no hesitation to do so. But, also, I wouldn’t want to be complacent and "let them sort it out", because I just don't believe that anything good can come from that, for either dog. I'm not talking about "normal" dogs who use an appropriate escalation hierarchy, but for dogs like the twins, who escalate too quickly (by my standards), I need to protect both the incoming dog from that stress and confusion, and also my current dogs from feeling that way.

With Ginny, he was awkward but OK around her from the get-go. It was only in highly-charged situations where he snapped a couple of times (small kitchen, me prepping food, dogs come barging in sort of scenario). I think that was exacerbated a bit by her awkward movement, which means she can’t be as thoughtful about where she puts herself, and it’s very easy for her to bump into the others when they’re close. But that was maybe a couple of months where I had to make a really concerted effort to not let that sort of situation occur. To be honest, Ginny learnt to manage it very quickly, too, and either stayed back from the situation, or if I had the Labs behind the kitchen threshold, she would come and sit by me in the empty space. I also did a fair amount of work station training, which she’s still a bit flaky at, but certainly helps when I need space between them all. I’m trying to recall the last time there was any snapping, and I can’t think of any instance in the last year, and now I don’t have to worry about managing them at all. When I feed them their chicken carcasses (Best. Thing. Ever.) they can bump each other and there’s no issue. She’s just one of the family now, and they all know they all get their fair share. Every once in a blue moon, Shadow will give a low growl if Ginny is really pushing it (honestly, she can be a terror!) - for example when she’s trying to seduce him when she’s in season. I will always remove him from that situation (hopefully before the growl, when I see him looking uncomfortable) but it doesn’t bother me, as it is so totally restrained and I think it’s good for him to see that those smaller behaviours can lead to the outcome he wants, rather than having to go straight to dickishness.

With Squidge, it was far more dramatic and took a lot longer. I do think that some of what happened was simply that she grew up and turned into more of a “dog” than a Small Brown Thing. A bit like how children suddenly become “real people” to me when they’re older teenagers! Like me, he just doesn’t have the skills or patience to deal with the silliness and unpredictability of the kids. Even though Squidge was a total delight around them, and NEVER jumped on them or did anything you’d normally expect of a puppy - which she totally did with any other dogs she met

So with her, she was kept physically separate all the time in the house. They could be out in the garden together, or (once she was old enough) go out on the beach together. They ignored each other for the most part, but just being in the same space was beneficial. I always kept it one on one on walks, but in the garden they could all mooch about together. And of course, I was always supervising, keeping myself between them etc.

In the house, once they had had plenty of together time outside, I started introductions without them actually interacting, by sitting on the floor and having the pup on one side and the adult dog on the other, just giving them calm strokes. This was awesome for them, learning how to chill out together, again not interacting with each other, but enjoying simultaneous “Mum time” - learning there was enough of me to go around. Over time, this morphed into very gentle games of bitey-face, which I would break up after just a few seconds at first.

When we brought her back to Andorra at 17 weeks, it was still a bit fraught and she still spent most of her time in her pen, but it wasn’t long after that that she started to work her magic and we could have them out together. She was maybe six months before we were totally happy to leave them out together unsupervised, but part of that was because she was a bitey, destructive puppy! At the time it felt like forever, but I guess four months to total comfort, and only a couple of months from introducing her until they were “almost” there isn’t too long in the scheme of things!

 

[Cupcase]

@snowbunny thank you for such details, it's much appreciated. It gives me hope that it is possible for Cupar , with help, to live with another dog.

I haven't got around to muzzle training Cupar and did think I would be more comfortable with him not being able to do any damage with his mouth, to the gsd. I do think she may have arthritis and I wouldn't want him attacking her in any form.

This may never happen but I have been thinking on when Cassie is no longer with us, if one day we may get another dog, so it helps to reassure me that it can be done.

Cassie has been my biggest learning curve and I know exactly what happens if you allow two bitches to 'sort it out'. I'm living with the consequences of having to rehome a dog that I promised to give a home to and couldn't because I didn't know any better. I promise I know better now and thanks to Cupar and Cassie, I understand the early (or the ones humans can see if paying attention) signals and deal with it gently, without fuss.

I'm glad you explained about Squidge as I would love another puppy one day but always wrote it off as not possible with Cupar.

 

[snowbunny]

Has Cupar ever been in a real fight? Not just the noise, teeth flying, slavering awfulness of "handbags at dawn", but an actual fight where they were trying to do harm, and damage (beyond a scratch) was done?

You know, I've been thinking about how my perception of Shadow's behaviour has worsened over time, even though his actual behaviour is far, far better than it used to be. But I'm so much more sensitised to it, and one single event can affect me for a long time. Since he has been here, he's had some great interactions (and non-interactions) with other dogs, and a single scuffle with a rude adolescent dog who came running at him, barking. Shadow was muzzled and it was kinda interesting to be able to take a breath and watch what was actually happening (as I stepped in to break it up, obviously!), rather than being too frantic to take anything in. Having that breath meant I could see that neither of them was actually trying to hurt the other, they had their faces side-on to each other and they were just using their body weight to push each other around.
Still, I keep thinking of it, even though it was about a month ago now, and thinking about all the "shoulda, woulda couldas". And, because of that sensitisation, I'm pretty sure that if we hadn't already gone through introducing Squidge and Ginny before I became this sensitive, I would absolutely not introduce another dog to the household. It was a real shock to me how vehemently he hated Squidge to start off with. But, as it is, and having been through that experience, I'm now confident that we could do it again if needs be, and that it would just take time, management, and kindness to do it.

 

[Cupcase]

Has Cupar ever been in a real fight? Not just the noise, teeth flying, slavering awfulness of "handbags at dawn", but an actual fight where they were trying to do harm, and damage (beyond a scratch) was done?

You know, I've been thinking about how my perception of Shadow's behaviour has worsened over time, even though his actual behaviour is far, far better than it used to be. But I'm so much more sensitised to it, and one single event can affect me for a long time. Since he has been here, he's had some great interactions (and non-interactions) with other dogs, and a single scuffle with a rude adolescent dog who came running at him, barking. Shadow was muzzled and it was kinda interesting to be able to take a breath and watch what was actually happening (as I stepped in to break it up, obviously!), rather than being too frantic to take anything in. Having that breath meant I could see that neither of them was actually trying to hurt the other, they had their faces side-on to each other and they were just using their body weight to push each other around.
Still, I keep thinking of it, even though it was about a month ago now, and thinking about all the "shoulda, woulda couldas". And, because of that sensitisation, I'm pretty sure that if we hadn't already gone through introducing Squidge and Ginny before I became this sensitive, I would absolutely not introduce another dog to the household. It was a real shock to me how vehemently he hated Squidge to start off with. But, as it is, and having been through that experience, I'm now confident that we could do it again if needs be, and that it would just take time, management, and kindness to do it.

Well that made me think. No would need to be the answer. He's had 3 separate encounters. The first was over quickly and happened in the dark, so only saw what looked like two dogs on hind legs but no cuts, blood spilled.
Second time was with him on lead, to a dog he has known since a pup, both of them are entire. It didn't get time to escalate and the third were both dogs off lead and i could 'see' it start but was too slow to intervene but after both owners calling our dogs, it immediately stopped, Cupar recalled when I got my wits about me. No biting from any of the dogs or Cupar, thankfully.
What I took away from these encounters is all these dogs are entire.
It took me a long time to come down after Cupars encounters. My worst encounter though was when Cupar growled at my great nephew, that has never left me completely, I know I will manage any meeting of toddlers in the future( which means, never the two shall meet) but that left a dent in my confidence in ever getting a wee bit of normal. Bad enough with a dog that dislikes other dogs but one that dislikes humans is a whole different scenario. For weeks after, Cupar and my grandchildren were not allowed in the same room. I have eventually settled down and know that Cupar always can choose to be with the grandkids or not, he chooses them, they mean biscuits, crumbs, cuddles and anything they can throw.

I'm glad that I can think about adding another dog, I do like being surrounded by dogs.

 

[snowbunny]

I can't say I agree with all of this article (especially the final paragraph) but there is still plenty of sense in it: Fighting