More Ollie problems

[Big Paw]

Hi all again re: Ollie

Ollie is now 14 months old. All the training we have done has now gone out of the window, sit is now about it; he has started snatching things out of my hand and still bites me for no apparent reason and now he has adult teeth this is no joke this isn't a bit of playful mouthing this is full hard lock teeth sinking in, he bites when he is on my chair and I try and pull him off he snarls and bites at my efforts to get him off to the extent that I sometimes am quite scared of him which I expect he senses; this is behaviour I just don't recognise in a labrador. I have a friend who has been to stay since Ollie was a puppy so she has seen him in all his stages. Anyway she came this weekend and was shocked at how bad he was. The last four days have been awful. Walks are horrible where as his recall was good now I don't bother because he just won't come back. I can't leave him and on the odd occasions I do he just yowls and barks which my neighbour complains about which is fair enough, this behaviour again is all new, never even did that as a new puppy. I feel we have sunk into a vicious circle. He use to love to play with his ball and we would have games but he is no longer interested. He is making me so miserable I am not even sure I like him very much any more which again I expect he is picking up on and that is what I mean about the vicious cycle. I am begining to wonder if I am just the wrong situation for him.

 

[Jacqui-S]

You sound very disheartened and I can understand why.
Labradors can be hard.
All that puppy brain in adult body stuff.
I'm not the best to give advice on training, but I would maybe suggest you consider a consultation with a behaviourist.

I believe that having someone take a good look at how you interact together can be really helpful, and give some focus on how to get things back on track.

You aren't the first, and won't be the last, to feel the despair of the labrador owner.
But ride it out, it's worth it, things WILL get better.

 

[HAH]

Welcome back @Big Paw . I’m glad you’re here. It’s clear in your post that you’re at the end of your tether, but there is hope. So many of us have been close to where you are now, although “this too shall pass” can feel a bit empty when you’re in the eye of the storm.
Are you able to enlist the help of a behaviorist or behaviorist/trainer? I do wonder if that level of support and specialist advice is what would help you and Ollie best right now, and bring you some reassurance that you have everything Ollie needs.

 

[Big Paw]

Thank you both for your responses. We did one to one training back in December, she was both a trainer and a behaviour trainer and she really did know her onions and even she was somewhat aghast at some of his antics although, she did come up with a good plan for him and his particularly difficult behaviour which I followed and it worked well for a while. Prior to the one to one we had done two puppy classes and a different one to one trainer all of whom said, "you have a bit of a problem with this one", and left it at that. I signed up for a dog psychology course on line ect., ect. What was even more dispiriting was the vets last week; I have been going to this particular vet for 20 odd years, Ollie saw a vet I hadn't seen before and he was only there for his annual jabs and once over; the vet declared him impossible to examine and when I enquired about castration said it would make absolutely no difference as Ollie was completely mad, not very heartening as you can imagine. My mantra has been one day he will a lovely dog and this will pass but, I just can't see any indication of the dog he will become as I have with my other labradors. This is a bit bazaar but other dogs don't want to engage with him. I think

the problem is we don't have a connection, we are just not forming any sort of bond.
He has good quality cold pressed food and all sorts of 100%additive free treats in

yummy flavours so I don't think it is diet. I have started to wonder whether I am the
right friend and whether he really needs to be in a working envoiroment ??? Thanks for reading of you have got this far.

 

[Stacia]

It might be better to lure him off your chair rather than attempt to pull him off. He might see you pulling as a threat and feels scared. If it is any help I had a German Pointer who was full on and for the first ten months I hated her! She ended up as my favourite dog. I think there is a key to Ollie's behaviour, so perhaps re-think and try coming from a different angle.

 

[Anne123]

the problem is we don't have a connection, we are just not forming any sort of bond.

Try to find something to work with him what you both like. For example, Finn was a handful and we did all sorts of training with him. It was nice, but we didn’t bond. I didn’t like the dog (Finn) we bought and I thought he was a big mistake…Until I found out what a very good nose for scent he had. So we started man trailing. Finn was very good at this and he loved doing this. We loved it for we were outside working with him and seeing him work and having fun was so good! And what a different dog it was while working! To us it was a miracle! It changed the whole situation. We started loving him very much and he us!

From what you wrote I think you have the same feeling. That you regret having bought this lab. You have to work with a dog, doing things. Its not that I am saying you don’t, but you have’t written what efforts you made in working and doing nice, playful and teaching/ learning things with him….Is there a possibility for you to start a course in something you both like?

 

[Parodius]

Hi from me and my boy Neo who is also in the ‘terrible teens’ phase.

Do you have any friends or family members that could step in and watch him for an afternoon or something to give you a bit of a break? I have issues with Neo and separation anxiety am am currently with him pretty much 24/7 so understand how stressful it can be when you can’t leave them and don’t get any time to yourself without a little black nose appearing round the corner. Sometimes a bit of time apart can help to remember what you like about each other so might be worth a try if you can?

 

[Candy]

Hello and welcome back, I was wondering how you were getting on. Just a thought, I am by no means an expert, but with a change in behaviour such as you are describing, particularly with the aggression I would really be wanting a very thorough physical check, including full bloods for something this extreme. A change in behaviour can be a way of communicating that something is physically wrong.
This also goes for people who are less able than some of us to communicate verbally and I believe it's very probably the same for our dogs. I really hope you can find a solution to this, you must be finding it so distressing. Sending you thoughts and best wishes.

 

[Big Paw]

Thank you. Jelinga, use to lure him off the chair with a dried salmon skin which he loves, as I would to get him into a down but after a while he worked out he could get out of the chair snatching the salmon skin and be back in the chair in seconds flat.

Anne, this is something I have been thinking about but so far around where I live I have only be able to fly ball or agility classes which I am not mad about in relation to Labrador joints but still on the hunt, truffle hunting I thought he would enjoy but classes all full to September. I do two types of walks with him muddy rabbit/pheasant chasing and then more structured on the recreation ground where we could concentrate on his 're trieving, some hide and seek and some long lead recall but he is completely resistant to all, totally not interested in chasing his ball any more and has stopped coming to look for me when playing hide and seek which is tricky and the recall training on the long long lead hasn't really taken off. I do training with him at home but he has totally lost interest he just wants to dig up the garden and nothing will distract him from his digging, I have smeared balls in doggy
peanut butter in my various desperate attempts to distract him from the digging but
he just turns his nose up. I have bought all sorts of doggy games on Amazon come up with a couple of my own diy ones but chewing and digging are still priority. So the problem is we can't have any fun together because he has his own agenda and he doesn't want to play any of my games. Thank you for reading.

 

[Selina27]

Hi, sorry you are feeling this way about Ollie.
It would be so nice for you to find another professional be it trainer/behaviourist or vet who would really be on your side and really help you get though this time with Ollie.
With the chair thing, does he now think of it as his and he is now resource guarding it ?
I wonder if he needs to learn to settle in an appropriate place, and I wonder if he is generally over stimulated? There is a Relaxation Protocol in the training section on here, it might be worth ago.
I also agree re getting him checked out and finding an outlet fir his ability I struggled with Cassie at classes and she didn't always respond to gundog classes in the way that l hoped she would, but overtime I realised that I needed to work with the dog I had and had to work out her strengths/weaknesses.
I think that scentwork and mantrailing run classes nationally, people on here would know more I am sure @Beanwood @JES72 @Boogie

 

[edzbird]

A bit of gun-doggery training might be useful for him. I never did anything formal with Coco, but I used on-line resources to teach him retrieving. Step-by-step. It really used his brain - gave him a job and we both really enjoyed learning.

We used this clicker retrieve - Of course you'll have to teach him "the clicker" first - also lots of fun.

Finding what make him tick. Easy for me to say when your in the middle of his teenage storm. You have a lovely dog with Ollie, he's just a terrible teenager at the moment.

 

[Stacia]

Thank you. Jelinga, use to lure him off the chair with a dried salmon skin which he loves, as I would to get him into a down but after a while he worked out he could get out of the chair snatching the salmon skin and be back in the chair in seconds flat.

He sounds a very intelligent dog. Try and ride the storm. If he is continually digging, I think that is the release of some source of stress. Difficult for you but I am sure there is a key.

 

[David]

I feel your pain! I've had experience with two Labs that had issues similar to what you are describing with the "terrible teens" and "croco dog".

Our first girl, Lady, was an absolute nightmare at that age. We had to engage a dog walker for a period and when she came to assess Lady she said she wasn't prepared to take her unless we saw a behaviourist and sorted out her aggressive behaviour. £300 later we had a report and a plan of action for a dog showing normal puppy behaviour with no signs of aggressive behaviour.

A friend suggested a spot of gundog training to give her focus and tire her out physically and mentally. It was a big help and Lady settled nicely although we never really overcame her mouthing, she now did it with a soft mouth rather than tending to draw blood. We ended up with a reasonably well-mannered dog that could also work on a shoot.

Lady has gone now and in July last year we picked up a failed sniffer dog from the police. She was 18 months old and another nightmare. This dog, Poppy, has always been very good in the house and with people but she had no real experience of not working and how to behave in the countryside and with other dogs. I spent the first 6 months getting basic stuff into her like walking at heal without pulling my arms out of their sockets, and generally bonding with her. She's now un-learning sniffer dog stuff and learning all new stuff as a gundog - long way to go, but .....

She's calmed down completely, doesn't lunge at other dogs on the lead and no longer gets super hyper ridiculous when playing with other dogs outside. She's pretty much become a lovely polite Labrador.

A touch of gundog training might very well be worth a try, I think. Certainly no harm in giving it a try.

 

[Joy]

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with Ollie at the moment. I wonder how serious his biting is? Does he break the skin or is it a rough grab?You say it's more than mouthing and if it's scaring you then I do think it's something that needs to be addressed. A force-free trainer such as one from the IMDT or APDT would be a good idea if funds allow. Otherwise there is a really good book on resource guarding called "Mine!' by Jean Donaldson which gives detailed step by step instructions (I'm thinking of getting him to leave the chair when you want him to.)

I agree with comments other people have made, that gun-dog training might give him an outlet for both physical and mental energy. I think he might enjoy learning to hunt.

Another suggestion I have is to look at whether you are really rewarding heavily enough for behaviours you want. Pick a special place (dog bed, mat etc) that you are never going to need to disturb him from or make him leave and reward with lots of delicious food for being on it. Then throw a less desirable treat away from it saying 'get it'. Ollie runs to get the treat and when he comes back to the special spot you again give high-value food. Repeat, repeat, repeat.... (If you are worried about him snatching the food from you, stnad by the special spot with the food in a small bowl and place it on the floor as he comes towards you.)

I'm a Rally enthusiast and actually even training these exercises I think would help build a bond between you. One dog I borrow was running off from his owner when I started working with him, but he has been a dream to work with, really needing something to focus his mind on. I'd be happy to chat to you about how to get started.

I really like the book 'Total Recall' by Pippa Mattinson - it gives a detailed training plan and I've found it works. One of the exercises in this book involves being out on a walk and noticing when your dog comes within a radius of a couple of metres and then throwing a treat so they need to move further away. Every time they come within that circle you throw a treat. Then you gradually make the circle smaller, so you only throw the treat when they are one metre away, then 1/2 a metre etc. Eventually you can make it so that it is returning to heel position that triggers the treat throw. My own dog and the two I borrow love this game and all are very quick to come to heel. I reward for this every time.

I hope you can find a way to live happily with Ollie. Let me know if you think I can help.

 

[Big Paw]

I can't thank you all enough for your advice and experiences, enormously helpful, thank you all for taking the time.

The chair business is dominance according to my book, I don't mind him getting on with me but he needs to wait to be invited.

He has been breaking the skin when biting but I am putting that down to him not knowing his own strength.

This last week has been such a nightmare because of his hormones, my theory anyway and, as teresorone is a chemical I am guessing his head has been all over the place hence the complete disintegration of his training to date. There have been a lot of positives this morning even managing some loose lead walking on the way back to the car......result.

I think the man trailing or similar would be just up his street, I think another training class before though would be a good idea and I have now got details of someone locally who I am told is really good.

Joy, what is Rally all about and thank you for your ideas.

Thank you all so much again

 

[M.F.]

So sorry you’re feeling this way. I don’t really have any advice because I was pretty useless myself when we got Snowie 10 years ago. But what I will say is this: I wish people would realise how hurtful it is to hear them say “your dog is impossible” (or crazy, untrainable, the worst in the class, etc). My advice is to ignore them. And find yourself a trainer who is sympathetic and helpful. It took us a year and a half of awful dog schools and awful trainers before we luckily found a lovely positive-only school. Made all the difference. Best of luck! Dogs mature. Things will get better.

 

[Joy]

Good to hear you had some positive responses this morning. I don't think that labelling behaviour as 'dominance' actually helps deal with it. I would really recommend, as I outlined above, making a bed/corner/mat a really desirable place for Ollie. I find it often help to think of dogs as toddlers (Iwas an Early Years teacher for many years and notice many similarities!) If a toddler wanted to sit and watch TV when we wanted them to have a bath and go to bed there are various options. Yes, you could turn the TV off, pick up the (probably screaming) child and carry them off. Or you could let them know in advance what the routine was and make it pleasurable - a special rhyme/ dance up the stairs, playtime in the bath with bubbles and a story in bed. I think sometimes we think our dogs should just 'do what they are told' (and of course I get irritated at times like everyone does) but if we think of the outcome we want, that then enables us to make a plan to make it a desirable thing for the dog.
The 'Mine' book is very good and gives really practical steps to take.

As regards Rally, well it is a Kennel Club sport that is essentially competitive obedience, but has a more varied range of exercises than the Obedience sport. I have posted quite a few videos in the Rally section of the forum if you want to see what it looks like. There were no clubs near me so I taught myself by reading about it. Although I hire a barn or field to record rounds, normally I just train while out on walks. I borrow two dogs and basically take them for a walk with activities.
Near me there is an amazing dog-walker who walks only 4 dogs at a time and goes out with a huge rucksack of equipment and a plan for what they are going to do. The dogs are so good with her because her focus is on them all the time and they do all sorts of different things - eg paws up on object, send around an object, find something hidden etc.
I'm not sure it matters what activity you decide on, the key thing is to start something with Ollie to build your relationship.

 

[Candy]

I'm by no means as experienced as Joy ( in the above post) but I do find that without any doubt at all making what I want my dog ( also called Joy, to some people's confusion at times) to do SO much more fun than anything else means that she does what I want her to do pretty much all of the time now. If she doesn't, then I know that I have to up my game! Speaking of games, she is very playful and just loves a game, so now any kind of training or shaping of behaviour is something that I turn into a game. This makes it fun for both of us and works well. I have learned this and so much more from coming to this forum, so stick with us and you and Ollie will get there eventually!

 

[Jacqui-S]

I think @Selina27 mentioned the Relaxation Protocol , thought I would add a link to the tread about it.

 

[Jacqui-S]

You also might find 101 things to do on restricted exercise could give you some ideas on activities around the house and garden, BUT with a proviso from me, that I think OVER- stimulating a dog isn't a good thing, and ensuring down time (with the Relaxation Protocol for instance) is really important.
My theory is that dogs from busy family households seem more high energy than those from more laid back, ahem older with no kids, households.