- Location
- Cornwall , UK
This thread has made me cry , and then giggle , then cry again . I guess none of us know whats around the corner do we ? So pleased that you can laugh at your dear Otter , the best medicine in the world x
Otter's Journey....
- Thread starter Beanwood
- Start date
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
This has made me smile --- what a little star
Lisa
Moderator
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Give’er, Otter! 
- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
Clever girl 
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Hah, she is SO like Willow- she looks a lot like her (colour aside), and Willow is totally obsessed with the T&T - she stares at it so hard, finds it really difficult to turn away from it. Best. Thing. Ever.This is Otter with the RT....she seems to be getting the hang of it now...only punched it a couple of times!
Beanwood
Administrator
Here is a calmer Otter. We are working on a prelude to the relaxation protocol, so will ditch the clicker when we get started. I am surprised how quickly she "got it". In this exercise, I wanted her lying down, hip to one side as apposed to a naturally more alert sit. 
She still gives it a sly bash though!
She still gives it a sly bash though! 
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
The look on her face...
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Hehehe, sweet girl!
When I use my T&T, I use the beep of the machine as the "click"; it means there is one less thing to hold. If you click as well, the click is the predictor of the beep, which is the predictor of the food, so the click becomes a tertiary, rather than secondary, reinforcer.
When I use my T&T, I use the beep of the machine as the "click"; it means there is one less thing to hold. If you click as well, the click is the predictor of the beep, which is the predictor of the food, so the click becomes a tertiary, rather than secondary, reinforcer.
Beanwood
Administrator
I have now taken the clicker and the beep out of the sessions, and use these sessions as a "wind down" before her nap. My objective is to help her be calm around distractions, so basically rewarding her for doing nothing, but rewarding her when her body position indicates she is calm, becoming calmer. The T&T is brilliant for removing the focus of me, and more onto what is happening to her/and around her. She is also now on a medication protocol and this is part of our long counter conditioning journey with her. Will stick up a post in a bit which will make a bit more sense I hope!
Beanwood
Administrator
Otters Journey - My little Stress Bucket
I was contemplating a separate thread, however it is very difficult to extrapolate her psychological challenges from her physical ones. They are kinda inter-related. The knee injury has impacted on her ability to be a young "normal" puppy. Actually the poor handling from her dental issue may have started the ball rolling.
I will try not to get nerdy, as I have had some really nerdy conversations recently, just about getting my head around them, I think!
"Stress bucket" though is a good description. She has a bright little zen bucket in her head - but right now she just gets too excited and instead of nice balance of ( calm thinking) zen vs arousal - it just fills up with stress. This has really started to impact on her behaviour and confidence. This zen bucket needs a fine balance of calm, rest, sleep, arousal and anticipation, like a perfectly brewed cup of tea which just hits the spot. If the mechanics of making this perfect cup of tea don't quite mesh, well it just isn't right.... worst case, bloody awful!
A note on prediction. Certain things happen in a chain, that predict something nice, equally the same for something scary. If I see @Mr Beanwood , in his bee suit, I know the bees are going to be a bit agitated, and better to avoid that area as there is a likelihood of getting stung. I was attacked by a number of bees a few years ago now, that panic and fear has never left me. Actually, if I get a sniff of the smoke he makes to calm the bees before his dons his bee-suit, heck I ain't going out! The smoke illicits a fear response in me - a previously neutral stimulus (the smoke..) now predicts something bad/scary may happen. Otter does the same. She has a fear of the vets, she has higher conditioned this fear right back to me either picking up my rucksack, harness, keys....she is terrified of the car. The car predicts something scary is going to happen. On the other hand, you go anywhere near the freezer and Otter is a happy bunny! Ever hopeful a nice frozen kong may appear! When Benson sees his collar in my hand, he turns into a mad jumping crazy kangeroo! (I know my training sucks! ) For Benson the collar predicts a walk...the most amazing thing in his life..he just lives for his walks! We will come back to predicting "good" things later.
OK back in a mo....
I was contemplating a separate thread, however it is very difficult to extrapolate her psychological challenges from her physical ones. They are kinda inter-related. The knee injury has impacted on her ability to be a young "normal" puppy. Actually the poor handling from her dental issue may have started the ball rolling.
I will try not to get nerdy, as I have had some really nerdy conversations recently, just about getting my head around them, I think!
"Stress bucket" though is a good description. She has a bright little zen bucket in her head - but right now she just gets too excited and instead of nice balance of ( calm thinking) zen vs arousal - it just fills up with stress. This has really started to impact on her behaviour and confidence. This zen bucket needs a fine balance of calm, rest, sleep, arousal and anticipation, like a perfectly brewed cup of tea which just hits the spot. If the mechanics of making this perfect cup of tea don't quite mesh, well it just isn't right.... worst case, bloody awful!A note on prediction. Certain things happen in a chain, that predict something nice, equally the same for something scary. If I see @Mr Beanwood , in his bee suit, I know the bees are going to be a bit agitated, and better to avoid that area as there is a likelihood of getting stung. I was attacked by a number of bees a few years ago now, that panic and fear has never left me. Actually, if I get a sniff of the smoke he makes to calm the bees before his dons his bee-suit, heck I ain't going out! The smoke illicits a fear response in me - a previously neutral stimulus (the smoke..) now predicts something bad/scary may happen. Otter does the same. She has a fear of the vets, she has higher conditioned this fear right back to me either picking up my rucksack, harness, keys....she is terrified of the car. The car predicts something scary is going to happen. On the other hand, you go anywhere near the freezer and Otter is a happy bunny! Ever hopeful a nice frozen kong may appear!
When Benson sees his collar in my hand, he turns into a mad jumping crazy kangeroo! (I know my training sucks! ) For Benson the collar predicts a walk...the most amazing thing in his life..he just lives for his walks! We will come back to predicting "good" things later.OK back in a mo....
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- Location
- Malvern Worcestershire
It is solvable x
Beanwood
Administrator
Being an optimist I think so!
The behaviour vet I saw on Thursday thinks her behaviour is a bit atypical in presentation, compared to what he normally sees in terms of maladaptive behaviour. He he did ask a lot of questions re: Otters previous vet experiences, as well as how they anaesthetised her, and brought her round, he thinks that probably has a lot to with how she is now, coupled possibly with a naturally hyper active temperament.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
Interesting as what you are saying about chained reactions is exactly what we're covering in that Animals & Emotions online class. While I'm oversimplifying as I'm not at nerd level , that also means it can go the other way too - that you can use predictors to infect the icky stuff too. Which I know that you already know, just saying it as it gives me hope that Otter's triggers maybe can be 're-rigged' for positive stuff.
Do you also think her age could also be playing a factor? I'm not so sure with Labs, but with Rotties this is certainly the age where things tend to go a bit wonky for a while.
, that also means it can go the other way too - that you can use predictors to infect the icky stuff too. Which I know that you already know, just saying it as it gives me hope that Otter's triggers maybe can be 're-rigged' for positive stuff. Do you also think her age could also be playing a factor? I'm not so sure with Labs, but with Rotties this is certainly the age where things tend to go a bit wonky for a while.
Beanwood
Administrator
Sorry just coming back to this
. Re age, now that is a very interesting question. For sure, we see some nervousness anytime from 6 months or so right up to one year old in puppies, and I have seen this in Benson, and more significantly in Bramble. It was very subtle in Benson, but far more noticeable in Bramble, to the extent that I got a little worried when she hit 8 months or so. Otter will be 7 months old next week, and as we hit adolescence anytime now..then for sure we run a bit of a risk as we hit the "second fear phase" . Although, I actually don't think we will have a problem. Otter is fairly robust when it comes to novel things, situations and even noise.I mentioned that the vet behaviourist suggested that Otters anxiety didn't present as typical of a nervous, anxious dog. For sure there is anxiety, but it is very much channelled to one thing, which actually he wondered if this was back chained right back to her vet experiences. There is also a possibility that she always had an inherent suspiciousness of people which in itself is not necessarily problematic, just considered a bit more unusual in a labrador. We saw this reticence to humans on our puppy classes. It was a shame really, and a real bugbear I had about her puppy classes, when in one of the exercises, the owner dog owners were supposed to approach Otter and offer her treats.
We have a plan of counter-conditioning with Otter - to the car, plus our neighbours, with a relaxation protocol combined with medication. Otter has also started working with our fantastic rehab vet, so lots going on right now!
Beanwood
Administrator
Update - Knee
It does seem that Otter has grown a little in the last couple of weeks. Maybe? Or just wishful thinking.... She seems to be using her leg well and although there is this frustrating external rotation, it actually appears to have improved a little, possibly due to natural muscle development as her growth upwards is now slowing down. We have also been to the rehab vet, the conclusion is that Otter needs to weight-bear more on the affected leg, however this is more of a mechanical issue and not due to any pain or discomfort. Next Monday we are going to be brave and attempt the watertank with Otter. She was happy entering the tank and running from one end to another, as we wanted a "positive only" experience so it was all about games and food this week, with absolutely no expectations. We have a list of exercises to work with in the meantime!
1. Three legged stand - holding one front paw - or Otter placing paw on a balance cushion. This shifts her weight to her rear end activating her hind muscles. 60% of a dogs weight is over the front end, so shifting slightly to the back works those back leg muscles and core.
2. Walking backwards - Increasing rear end awareness.
3. Narrow sensory pathway - increasing proprioception feedback from paws - pads and toes...to the brain.
4. To-Toe Matz - these are really tactile mats that get right into the foot pad offering great feedback to the brain from the paw. This is proprioception tool with the same purpose as the sensory pathway.
5. Slow walking - once a day to increase contact of all four with the ground.
To - Toe Matz - from TotoFit UK
Our Anxious little Potterhead
After a miserable couple of months where despite everything, this people - focused anxiety seemed to be worsening, now at an age where I was fully expecting this to get worse, we have had a glimpse of the real Otter. Tiny improvements and a glimmer of hope. I know that her progress is unlikely to be linear, mainly due to the fact it is sooo hard to completely manage our environment, with the best will in the world curve balls seem to come from nowhere. For now though we are going to enjoy these positive moments!
First improvement was just a few days ago, when I realised that Otter was choosing to play in that lovely relaxed, "roly poly around on the floor" way, legs akimbo with her soft gorgeous tummy exposed, face playful and relaxed. Body was soft and gentle. Just a special moment. Then, this morning she played roly poly with @Mr Beanwood!
We have been working on "Look and Dismiss" in a safe area, gradually moving closer to the end of our little lane, approximately 1/4 mile from our Cottage. It is quite busy, with buses and heavy vehicles. Excuse my mechanics, timing needs to improve! I am marking the point Otter looks back at me after looking at the road. When we head back, she is on a nice loose lead, indicating to me that she is not stressed, but walking comfortably.
Then, today a HUGE breakthrough! It was my mums birthday, she lives an hour away through some tricky traffic. Otter has only been left for a max of 2 hours. We didn't want to push this, risk getting delayed and leaving her too long on her own. We decided to take her with us. Admittedly it was a risk as Otter hasn't met my parents yet. To cut a long story short, she was simply amazing! A few woofs at my parents, then she settled into some serious exploring, and playing with their dog Ruby. We were flabbergasted! Not only was she good, but I was able to interrupt her zoomies, and calm her quickly. Absolutely thrilled.
A photo of Otter and Ruby at my parents house...
It does seem that Otter has grown a little in the last couple of weeks. Maybe? Or just wishful thinking.... She seems to be using her leg well and although there is this frustrating external rotation, it actually appears to have improved a little, possibly due to natural muscle development as her growth upwards is now slowing down. We have also been to the rehab vet, the conclusion is that Otter needs to weight-bear more on the affected leg, however this is more of a mechanical issue and not due to any pain or discomfort. Next Monday we are going to be brave and attempt the watertank with Otter. She was happy entering the tank and running from one end to another, as we wanted a "positive only" experience so it was all about games and food this week, with absolutely no expectations. We have a list of exercises to work with in the meantime!
1. Three legged stand - holding one front paw - or Otter placing paw on a balance cushion. This shifts her weight to her rear end activating her hind muscles. 60% of a dogs weight is over the front end, so shifting slightly to the back works those back leg muscles and core.
2. Walking backwards - Increasing rear end awareness.
3. Narrow sensory pathway - increasing proprioception feedback from paws - pads and toes...to the brain.
4. To-Toe Matz - these are really tactile mats that get right into the foot pad offering great feedback to the brain from the paw. This is proprioception tool with the same purpose as the sensory pathway.
5. Slow walking - once a day to increase contact of all four with the ground.
To - Toe Matz - from TotoFit UK
Our Anxious little Potterhead
After a miserable couple of months where despite everything, this people - focused anxiety seemed to be worsening, now at an age where I was fully expecting this to get worse, we have had a glimpse of the real Otter. Tiny improvements and a glimmer of hope. I know that her progress is unlikely to be linear, mainly due to the fact it is sooo hard to completely manage our environment, with the best will in the world curve balls seem to come from nowhere. For now though we are going to enjoy these positive moments!
First improvement was just a few days ago, when I realised that Otter was choosing to play in that lovely relaxed, "roly poly around on the floor" way, legs akimbo with her soft gorgeous tummy exposed, face playful and relaxed. Body was soft and gentle. Just a special moment. Then, this morning she played roly poly with @Mr Beanwood!
We have been working on "Look and Dismiss" in a safe area, gradually moving closer to the end of our little lane, approximately 1/4 mile from our Cottage. It is quite busy, with buses and heavy vehicles. Excuse my mechanics, timing needs to improve! I am marking the point Otter looks back at me after looking at the road. When we head back, she is on a nice loose lead, indicating to me that she is not stressed, but walking comfortably.
Then, today a HUGE breakthrough! It was my mums birthday, she lives an hour away through some tricky traffic. Otter has only been left for a max of 2 hours. We didn't want to push this, risk getting delayed and leaving her too long on her own. We decided to take her with us. Admittedly it was a risk as Otter hasn't met my parents yet. To cut a long story short, she was simply amazing! A few woofs at my parents, then she settled into some serious exploring, and playing with their dog Ruby. We were flabbergasted! Not only was she good, but I was able to interrupt her zoomies, and calm her quickly. Absolutely thrilled.
A photo of Otter and Ruby at my parents house...
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- Location
- Cornwall , UK
Well done Otter , this must have made your heart sing Kate xxx
That's such good progress, in so.many ways. You must be so pleased. Otter is such s brave girly