Sheep!

[Lara_Pigletina]

So, it is looking likely that in the next 4 months or so we are moving to a Victorian farmhouse in Snowdonia! Which is very exciting (and y’know, clearly the best time to make a big house move is with a new baby ) but what fills me with horror is the abundance of sheep in the surrounding fields, as well as the inevitable unexpected loose sheep on every road and path that have got out their fields. As you probably know, the Pig has a huge hunting drive, and when something runs, she wants to kill it. We live in cow country here so she has very rarely come across sheep, apart from one very stressful welsh holiday where we walked on narrow paths where occasionally a loose sheep would pop out and run madly in front of us and the Pig would be on the lead in a mad frenzy, shaking and foaming at the mouth. For her safety (and the sheeps) I have to sort this out, but don’t really know where to start. I have never cracked it with deer or pheasants (some success with bunnies, but limited). I guess the advantage with the sheep is that they are generally predictable, accessible and in one place for training purposes so I could do a lot of LAT with them (unlike with munties/phessies) - but is that the only approach I should take? I suspect she will get bored of them quickly if they don’t run, but if they run it will be a different thing. This is probably the training that has the most serious consequences if it goes wrong, as we all know that farmers will shoot a dog with no hesitation if they are chasing sheep. Obviously we will do all the necessary fence maintenance etc. to try to prevent a situation alongside training but I am worried that won’t be enough, and she can jump ridiculously high when in ‘hunting mode’ any ideas?

 

[Stacia]

I have ideas but no one would approve! One certainly worked on a dog who had killed a sheep, after that he could walk his dog on the common were sheep might suddenly leap out and his dog was off the lead.

I have been on a sheep awareness course here and I don't think it would deter a determined sheep chaser. Maybe your dog will just get used to them and ignore them. With mine, I took a ball with me, walked him through the sheep on the lead and got him focussed on the ball. He will now look to me for the ball if we see sheep, but I don't think I would ever trust him totally.

 

[HAH]

Firstly, congratulations on all the changes - what exciting times ahead! And they say that busy people are the most efficient (or something like that?); you'll definitely be gainfully occupied over the next few months What's the house like, will you need to do much work? Do you have a good garden?

I'm stumped on this beyond what you've already thought of, sorry not to be able to offer useful advice - but I'm keen to hear other's thoughts. We haven't yet discovered if Kipper has a high hunting drive (sometimes he looks keen, other times shows little interest but = teenager) but we're v alert to potential pitfalls, since we are in sheep country. I wouldn't blame any farmer for taking drastic action, and aside from always being on a lead if there's a risk of sheep, working on a strong recall and watching him like a hawk I'd love ideas. The kennels my family used to take our dogs to did the old skool 'tether the dog in a pen with a newly-lambed ewe' approach which apparently worked (you probably wouldn't hear about the failures) but seems high risk and stressful for every creature involved - and definitely not positive reinforcement.

Hopefully there'll be ideas along soon.

 

[JES72]

If only the sheep would stay in their allotted field then you'd be able to see clearly where they are.

I have huge respect for farmers and the hard work they do, but...

On our trip to the Lake District last Summer there were gaps in the stone walls around the fields everywhere so that the sheep were all over the place and often on the roads. One of us would walk ahead to the next field or around a corner and check if there were any sheep, if there were then Homer was on lead if not then we'd let him go, but he'd have to go back on lead as there was inevitably a loose lone sheep somewhere. Homer was good and responded, with a little loop round, to recall. We had to be on the watch out all the time.

If I won the lottery I'd set up some sort of trust to help the farmers maintain their walls.

 

[Stacia]

Many, many, many years ago when dog training was very much 'old school' my gun dog trainer arranged (as @HAH mentioned) me to put my dog in a small pen with a sheep and a lamb, fortunately all that happened was the sheep looked at my dog and my dog looked at the sheep, nothing else happened. Years later I learned that it could be very dangerous for the dog

 

[HAH]

If only the sheep would stay in their allotted field

Sheep often seem to want to either escape or die
On our walk yesterday we crossed a couple of fields that often have deer grazing in them, so we were on the look out; and lo and behold there was a ewe at the top of the furthest field, had obviously escaped from a nearby field and was having a lovely time with all that grass. All passed without incident, but always on the lookout for those escape artistes

 

[Boogie]

It sounds harsh but I would keep her on a good harness and lead at all times there’s a possibility of sheep being around. Round here we get a lot of loose sheep and I never have Tatze off lead unless I know the area is well fenced and sheep-proof (which is all Water Board property round here, gods bless them). The same when I visit my brother’s farm. She doesn’t have a big chase drive, but it’s enough to worry me.

.

 

[snowbunny]

I agree with @Boogie. I always keep my dogs on lead around sheep and they've never shown any inclination to chase them. It's not worth the risk. Luckily, it's not something I have to deal with daily - this also means that I haven't put any considerable amount of time into training them to be calm around sheep, but, still, the consequences are too severe to think that I'd ever risk it. I put it in the same category as walking your dog off-lead on a pavement of a busy road. However well trained they are, stuff happens and it's not worth the risk. To me.

With a dog like yours, with an incredibly high prey drive, you'd be asking her to go against what all her instincts are telling her is right. I don't think it's likely that you'd ever be able to consider her entirely safe around sheep. The most effective methods would undoubtedly involve the use of aversives and still, in order to overcome that huge innate drive she has, you'd likely have to use such high levels of punishment to essentially break her. Think of the one thing you love to do above everything else in the world and think about the level of threat or pain that would be necessary to stop you wanting to do it.
This isn't to say you can't and shouldn't work on her being calm around livestock by any stretch; of course you can use all the normal techniques* for keeping her calm and engaged on other things, but I think that, realistically, this will always be done on lead.

As for fencing, you can look at anti-climb options, where the top of the fence angles in, or has roll bars on top, but it would have to be high enough for her to not simply jump over.

*eg:
LAT
Scatter feeding
Orientation games
Playing with you around distractions

 

[Charlie]

Exciting times Lara, good luck I live in a rural area and am surrounded by sheep, so many sheep !!
I have had to train good behaviour round livestock for their benefit and my dogs. I always keep Hattie & Charlie on lead and I know how good they are but I would never take a chance. Hattie can go almost nose to nose with a sheep and not flinch. Last year Hattie calmed a lamb down by licking it whilst I got him out as he was trapped Charlie is not interested but this has all taken lots and lots of training to ignore and be calm in the presence of all animals. LAT helped a lot. You can do it but always on lead, in time Indie may learn to ignore them, if Charlie can Indie can xx

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Wow, your move sounds like a rather amazing adventure for the whole family - congratulations!

I don't have any experience with sheep but to give you a glimmer of hope (maybe) my experience is that dogs get used to/bored with what they see every day. With the dogs I had in Spain (Brogan of course and a couple fosters), horses and cows quickly became 'meh' because we saw them every day, usually twice a day. The different dogs had different reactivity starting points, but after a month or so of constant cows and horses, it really was a non-issue.

I would still keep the Pig on lead for safety, but hopefully with constant exposure it won't be as dire as you are thinking.

 

[Beanwood]

What an adventure you have ahead of you!

Bramble is very high prey drive as you know...but not around lambs/sheep, I already know this because we often have lambs in the paddock, as a young puppy she would come with me when I was feeding sheep nuts, so I guess she has never made the connection between prey and sheep....yet! Even so, I would never, ever let her off lead with sheep around. We had to reinforce our fencing, and add stock and chicken wire to stop Casper getting through though.

The paddock where the sheep are backs directly onto our garden, and even though Casper is a chaser, he got habituated to seeing them there, still likes to bark at them, but that's more of a personalty thing with him!

We also have deer coming in the garden through the woods, and have just finished a mammoth task of cutting some woodland back in order to securely fence off the woodland. Bit tiresome to watch Casper disappearing off after some wily muntjac!

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

I have ideas but no one would approve! One certainly worked on a dog who had killed a sheep, after that he could walk his dog on the common were sheep might suddenly leap out and his dog was off the lead.

I have been on a sheep awareness course here and I don't think it would deter a determined sheep chaser. Maybe your dog will just get used to them and ignore them. With mine, I took a ball with me, walked him through the sheep on the lead and got him focussed on the ball. He will now look to me for the ball if we see sheep, but I don't think I would ever trust him totally.

yes I looked at some sheep awareness courses online, there are a few that look quite good but I think there is a big difference between relatively calm stationary sheep in a field, and a single running hill sheep on a path. Ah I wish the Pig liked balls! But I agree, I wouldn't ever trust her totally even if I felt we had successfully 'sheep proofed'.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Firstly, congratulations on all the changes - what exciting times ahead! And they say that busy people are the most efficient (or something like that?); you'll definitely be gainfully occupied over the next few months What's the house like, will you need to do much work? Do you have a good garden?

Yes I am pretty excited! The house doesn't need much serious stuff doing, so just the fun cosmetic stuff to do to make it our style. The land around it is a higgledy-piggledy arrangement of random paddocks and outbuildings, but there is a little cottage garden that we are going to fence well and hopefully then be able to relax to let the Pig out in, and perhaps extend it to the paddock at the back to get a good dog exercise area

there are also two holiday cottages that were run by the previous owners! We are hoping to get them going again once we are settled - and they are dog friendly - so anyone want a holiday in snowdonia with their labs let me know...the farm has a view of the mountains running down to the sea, it is beautiful.

The kennels my family used to take our dogs to did the old skool 'tether the dog in a pen with a newly-lambed ewe' approach which apparently worked (you probably wouldn't hear about the failures) but seems high risk and stressful for every creature involved - and definitely not positive reinforcement.

yes I came across this too! some people use a ram! I'm sure it does work in some situations, but so dangerous for both dog and sheep!

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

If only the sheep would stay in their allotted field then you'd be able to see clearly where they are.

I have huge respect for farmers and the hard work they do, but...

On our trip to the Lake District last Summer there were gaps in the stone walls around the fields everywhere so that the sheep were all over the place and often on the roads. One of us would walk ahead to the next field or around a corner and check if there were any sheep, if there were then Homer was on lead if not then we'd let him go, but he'd have to go back on lead as there was inevitably a loose lone sheep somewhere. Homer was good and responded, with a little loop round, to recall. We had to be on the watch out all the time.

If I won the lottery I'd set up some sort of trust to help the farmers maintain their walls.

Exactly! its more the random escaped sheep that I am worried about than the ones in fields, but it really seems like I am just going to have to be on high alert at all times, everywhere (which I already felt I was with the Pig because of risk of deer etc., but now even more so!). Ah I would love to be able to have a relaxed bumble with her, off the lead, enjoying the scenery rather than capering about like a mad woman jumping over the long line and squeaking and throwing sardines every two minutes. But alas, the Pig is the Pig!

 

[HAH]

I am pretty excited!

That sounds ideal, what a beautiful location between the mountains and the sea. Love the sound of the garden, and the holiday cottages - proper income potential!

I guess you'll get a measure of the sheep risk once you're in place. Priority sounds like industrially-solid fencing for the garden (helpful for hooman puppy too?), and then at least when the Pig's on lead or in your garden you'll be able to relax. And there are bound to be places that will be safe for off-lead work, once you've scoped the locale.
Although it'll help get your face known in the area if you carry on the long line jumping, squeaking and sardine tossing for a bit

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

It sounds harsh but I would keep her on a good harness and lead at all times there’s a possibility of sheep being around. Round here we get a lot of loose sheep and I never have Tatze off lead unless I know the area is well fenced and sheep-proof (which is all Water Board property round here, gods bless them). The same when I visit my brother’s farm. She doesn’t have a big chase drive, but it’s enough to worry me.

.

doesn't sound harsh at all, I don't think I will ever be in a position where I am so confident in the Pig that I have her off the lead in a sheepy area. I guess my worry is, it seems like a stray sheep might pop up in any place at any time! There are a lot of dodgy tumble-down dry stone walls and poorly maintained fences I have always felt bad that the Pig doesn't have the freedom that other dogs have, because I am always having her trail a long line, keep close to me, on a short lead for her walks with OH and with the dog walker...and now I feel like I am taking her to a place where she is going to have even less freedom I'll really try to get a dog paddock set up on the land at least that is as safe as possible, I guess it will be nice for the holiday cottage people too.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

With a dog like yours, with an incredibly high prey drive, you'd be asking her to go against what all her instincts are telling her is right. I don't think it's likely that you'd ever be able to consider her entirely safe around sheep. The most effective methods would undoubtedly involve the use of aversives and still, in order to overcome that huge innate drive she has, you'd likely have to use such high levels of punishment to essentially break her.

Absolutely. I remember the terrible day when she got away from me hunting a muntjac, tore her long line and harness off, and ran through bramble bushes until her face was bleeding and she had thorns in her eyelids. She was so full of adrenaline she couldn't feel the pain, I still cry when I think about it, especially as she was deliberately running away from me and OH trying to get her back so she could carry on hunting.

As for fencing, you can look at anti-climb options, where the top of the fence angles in, or has roll bars on top, but it would have to be high enough for her to not simply jump over.

*eg:
LAT
Scatter feeding
Orientation games
Playing with you around distractions

ah thanks for this, I could remember LAT but had forgotten the others. I do this already round rabbit holes etc. And the fence angling in idea is excellent - at least if I can make one area on our own land secure, I can relax at least some of the time! I will start research on 'pig-proof fence'!

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

Exciting times Lara, good luck I live in a rural area and am surrounded by sheep, so many sheep !!
I have had to train good behaviour round livestock for their benefit and my dogs. I always keep Hattie & Charlie on lead and I know how good they are but I would never take a chance. Hattie can go almost nose to nose with a sheep and not flinch. Last year Hattie calmed a lamb down by licking it whilst I got him out as he was trapped Charlie is not interested but this has all taken lots and lots of training to ignore and be calm in the presence of all animals. LAT helped a lot. You can do it but always on lead, in time Indie may learn to ignore them, if Charlie can Indie can xx

Hattie is just a darling isn't she at least I will be able to easily find sheep for training purposes, unlike my muntjac troubles!

 

[Aitch]

I have a large double fenced area for training and games. This might be the answer for you too. Rather than keeping the dogs in, it keeps other animals out. Rabbits get in but nothing larger.
Your new adventures sound wonderful. Do let us all know when those dog friendly cottages are up and running!

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

What an adventure you have ahead of you!

Bramble is very high prey drive as you know...but not around lambs/sheep, I already know this because we often have lambs in the paddock, as a young puppy she would come with me when I was feeding sheep nuts, so I guess she has never made the connection between prey and sheep....yet! Even so, I would never, ever let her off lead with sheep around. We had to reinforce our fencing, and add stock and chicken wire to stop Casper getting through though.

The paddock where the sheep are backs directly onto our garden, and even though Casper is a chaser, he got habituated to seeing them there, still likes to bark at them, but that's more of a personalty thing with him!

We also have deer coming in the garden through the woods, and have just finished a mammoth task of cutting some woodland back in order to securely fence off the woodland. Bit tiresome to watch Casper disappearing off after some wily muntjac!

looks like my OH's free time is going to be spent on fencing activities for the foreseeable future! ugh I hope there are no muntjac there. Apparently there are otters in the stream though god knows what the Pig will think of an otter!