The ethics of positive reinforcement training

[kateincornwall]

For me, setting up to fail is what happened recently when we went to see Emily . We had been previously , Reubs was an angel , but we stupidly went the second time when schools were out , so the beach was full of children , balls, frisbies and lots of dogs . Reuben was in complete sensory overload , which was my fault entirely , no way could a seven month old cope with the excitement , so I considered that I had set him up to fail x

 

[Joy]

@Natalie About a year ago I was shown this method of getting your dog to walk backwards. Stand with your legs apart, dog facing you and place a treat on the ground between your legs but just back a little way (say an inch). Tell your dog to get it. They will then naturally step backwards after picking up the treat to get back out from between your legs. As they move backwards click and treat. I learnt this on the IMDT 4 day practical course and it was the first time I had succeded in getting Molly to walk backwards.
I then left it for a long time because I couldn't see how to progress it - Molly hated having a platform behind her, she would swerve to avoid it. I've only recently started to get real progress, mostly because of Karolina Westlund's description of how to shape by rewarding any behaviour in the top 50% of what you want. I've also started to use a soft scarf on the floor as a marker so I can judge this, as Molly doesn't mind stepping on that.

In my ( limited ) experience most pet dog owners seem to want recall, loose lead walking and good household manners ( not stealing food etc.)

 

[Natalie]

Thanks @Joy , I will try that tomorrow and let you know.
Not that walking backwards is a big deal at all... it's just an example of getting stuck, losing confidence and being afraid to try new things

 

[Joy]

Yes, not an essential life skill!

 

[snowbunny]

Thanks @Joy , I will try that tomorrow and let you know.
Not that walking backwards is a big deal at all... it's just an example of getting stuck, losing confidence and being afraid to try new things

I put some video of this method on my 100 days of team thread. It does work well.

Sometimes the “not a big deal” things are the most important because they let us play around and figure stuff out, without the pressure of “I must get this right!”.

But, without wanting to add any pressure, I do think walking backwards is a little bit of a big deal. Maybe not in a practical sense for most people, but teaching the dog to be aware of their four corners and how to use them thoughtfully means they are less likely to sustain injury and remain sound for longer in later life.

 

[Natalie]

put some video of this method on my 100 days of team thread. It does work well.

Was this the same one as getting the dog to back up onto a step? I had hilarious results with Monty when I tried this outside as he insisted on always getting up onto the step front legs first, then turning himself round so that his front legs were on the ground but back legs were on the step. I had to reward him for the end result but how he got there was completely not what I was looking for. However I do see that if he can't walk backwards, why would he suddenly be able to walk backwards up a step?

 

[snowbunny]

Was this the same one as getting the dog to back up onto a step? I had hilarious results with Monty when I tried this outside as he insisted on always getting up onto the step front legs first, then turning himself round so that his front legs were on the ground but back legs were on the step. I had to reward him for the end result but how he got there was completely not what I was looking for. However I do see that if he can't walk backwards, why would he suddenly be able to walk backwards up a step?

Yes, that’s the one. I found with mine that it was easier with the raised target than without. Your focus isn’t walking backwards to start, it’s targeting the pad with rear feet. So get the dog into position and reinforce in place a few times, then put the food between your feet so they only just come off the step and they naturally move backwards once they’ve eaten it. You can play around with what target works best for your dog, but having something a little raised worked best for us because it was a clearer target.
Shadow turned a couple of times to start with, but I figured I was giving him too much space, so I got a little closer to the target. They tend to be creatures of efficiency, so once they realise that it’s the back feet on the target that’s the picture (which means realising they have back feet!) they will get there in the most efficient way they can, which means walking backwards

 

[Natalie]

Yes, that’s the one. I found with mine that it was easier with the raised target than without. Your focus isn’t walking backwards to start, it’s targeting the pad with rear feet. So get the dog into position and reinforce in place a few times, then put the food between your feet so they only just come off the step and they naturally move backwards once they’ve eaten it. You can play around with what target works best for your dog, but having something a little raised worked best for us because it was a clearer target.
Shadow turned a couple of times to start with, but I figured I was giving him too much space, so I got a little closer to the target. They tend to be creatures of efficiency, so once they realise that it’s the back feet on the target that’s the picture (which means realising they have back feet!) they will get there in the most efficient way they can, which means walking backwards

Thanks @snowbunny , I think I jumped in too fast there with the video before reading your explanations properly. I'll look again and concentrate a bit more