The Pig meets Shot and Game

[Boogie]

@snowbunny said -

It's probably a little different with your pups because you don't have to live for years with the frustration of the mistakes you made;

Oh my word - that makes me feel awful! I’ve always had it in mind that the expert trainers at Big School will deal with my mistakes. I’d hate their owners to be frustrated by something I’d done/omitted to do.

 

[snowbunny]

@snowbunny said -
Oh my word - that makes me feel awful! I’ve always had it in mind that the expert trainers at Big School will deal with my mistakes. I’d hate their owners to be frustrated by something I’d done/omitted to do.

Oh noooo! That's not what I meant at all! I mean, it probably doesn't matter what you do, each puppy will grow up to be a dog with its own "things" that need fixing. But when you live with it, you say "I won't make that mistake with the next one" so you make it a focus point. Well, it may be that you are doing something better, but it might also be that you're "fixing" something that would never have been a problem in the first place, for that dog.
I guess my point is, it's only natural to take the things that we wish we had done better with the previous dog and work on them hard with the next one, but other than foundation work (which I'm sure you do a marvellous job at anyway), what we should be doing is training the dog in front of us and addressing their needs, not the issues of their predecessors

 

[Boogie]

Ah yes, I see

 

[Boogie]

A good example of something worth never repeating is my Tatze and the broom lesson - I’ve never let a pup play with the broom again - huge mistake! Big 27Kg Labs and brooms do not make good playmates!

But, when it comes to each dog being different and maybe not even presenting a problem you are working on, I understand.

 

[Charlie]

what we should be doing is training the dog in front of us and addressing their needs, not the issues of their predecessors

That's the difficult bit. I know with my next puppy or rescue I will find this hard due to the many difficulties with Charlie and not wanting a repeat performance I would like a Hattie outcome, again this will be difficult xx

 

[MellowYellow]

It's so interesting to read your comments on this. I'm working with Merlin on retrieving from water and delivering to hand without putting the dummy down to shake (tricky, because he musn't swim too much as he develops cold water tail so easily...). When I was training this with Poppy I had to be careful not to put her under too much pressure, in fact as she came out of the water I would actually turn my head away from her, and even now I am careful not to stare at her or even look her in the eyes as she comes towards me from water. Of course I assumed this would also be the case with Merlin, but trial and error has proved the exact opposite to be true - I have to look right at him and engage his attention, then he'll bring the dummy back to me. Let his attention wander off me for a second, and he'll drop the dummy and shake!

 

[Peartree]

I need to come and join this thread as I have huge problems with Bing hunting. I’ve had 4 Labradors at this house but I’ve never had such problems before this. Some dogs are really tricky, he’s even learnt to open the French doors when he sees birds in the garden! And it’s not just birds...

 

[MellowYellow]

Oh my word @Peartree!!! Are you saying he chased and caught those??? If so, why are you allowing him to hold them?? I would take them straight away, and not let him feel pleased with himself / rewarded... Or am I misunderstanding??

 

[Peartree]

Oh my word @Peartree!!! Are you saying he chased and caught those??? If so, why are you allowing him to hold them?? I would take them straight away, and not let him feel pleased with himself / rewarded... Or am I misunderstanding??

Well if I took them straight away from him he would not bring them to me! I swop them for something good, otherwise I would have the behaviour that we started with, which was growling and resource guarding any thing that he found!! At the beginning I had to lasso him as he wasn’t going to let me within several feet of him.

 

[MellowYellow]

Well if I took them straight away from him he would not bring them to me! I swop them for something good, otherwise I would have the behaviour that we started with, which was growling and resource guarding any thing that he found!! At the beginning I had to lasso him as he wasn’t going to let me within several feet of him.

So he found the birds? Or chased and caught them? I do see you have quite a problem there, I'm not quite understanding what has happened though.

 

[Peartree]

We have a selection of found and hunted in that picture. The shoot comes up one field from the house and he often finds birds that they have missed. We are overrun with game and at any time we probably have 10 or so in our country garden. I do not walk the dogs directly from the house now until about March which is a complete pain, in order to reduce his opportunity to self hunt. In open countryside I don’t have too much problem, but around the house there are lots of young birds and hedges backed by chain link fence, which the birds get stuck in. He is under control when he is with me and generally I can stop him self rewarding, but he’s v good at finding them, in previous years I have had him pick birds from the hedge while walking on lead, at heel.

I have sort lots of advice on this problem from various trainers and had quite conflicting advice. He has a lovely delivery on game and dummies and we did a two hour workshop last week on cold game and he was super, there seems to be a huge difference between game he has found and game that I have sent him for.

 

[MellowYellow]

... there seems to be a huge difference between game he has found and game that I have sent him for.

That's very interesting, and I guess how you have to move forward - training on cold game so he gets to do what he loves best, but under controlled conditions. Sounds like you keep him under control as much as possible. How old is he?

 

[Heidrun]

Exactly! There must be a way, that’s why I am so frustrated that I can’t work out how to fix it! Every other problem I have with the Pig, I am either working on fixing or at least know what I need to do, but this, I am stuck.

Given that with food reinforcers (the pig’s second highest valued things) I have not been able to get her cued behaviours strong enough to break through the ‘hunting red mist’, I suspect I need to deal with the red mist directly, with some sort of habituation to game. I know she will never get bored of game, because it is bred into her, but if I can reduce the over-arousal when she smells a pheasant for example I might be in with a chance of her listening to me. Surely, if I trained with her somewhere full of pheasants every single day (with no hunting allowed) she would get less excited about them? Trouble is, I don’t have a place like that to try it out...

Work on a rock solid recall. Recall no matter what, and you will be safe even if a pheasant walks out in front of you. It is seriously hard work though, I won't lie, and to start with you will have to train in areas where you are pretty certain that you won't encounter game. Then very, very slowly proof the recall against game. If she is better with rabbits then start with those, then find birds on a beach and practise recall from sea gulls, before moving on to game birds.

This is Amy with me in the beating line. We are beating through this thickish cover crop going down hill with a lot of pheasants getting up in front of her. They are just in her line of eye flying across the valley and the temptation to chase must be enormous. But what gets her (and me) out of trouble is a really good recall. It is also important to know at what distance from you your recall is still effective. That varies from dog to dog but I always err on the side of caution and recall long before my dog gets to a distance where I know my recall will be diminished.

 

[snowbunny]

She's such a good girl! Beautiful Amy

 

[MellowYellow]

What a lovely girl she is

 

[Peartree]

That's very interesting, and I guess how you have to move forward - training on cold game so he gets to do what he loves best, but under controlled conditions. Sounds like you keep him under control as much as possible. How old is he?

Bing is 4 in January. We are much better this year compared to last. I have been working on a stop whistle when we see/flush the birds. I have been going close to the pheasant pens and taking his tea. Last year all I could manage was for him to give me eye contact in the presence of the pheasants and partridge. This year I can get him to sit to the whistle and not attempt to chase and I reward with his food. On Sunday I was able to get him to retrieve a dummy in the presence of the birds which is a great step forward. He is on a long line but there is no one holding the line.

The problems are when the birds are fluttering in the hedge as he knows he can easily peg them, from experience. He and I had quite a ‘discussion’ about two stuck last week!! He didn’t go for them after all

 

[Selina27]

If you'd known from the first day, you could have started controlled hunting at a very early age, and that would have made all the difference.

Yes, exactly this for me! That's what I meant by my going about things the wrong way with Cassie, that retrieving's not top of her to do list, she's had to learn it. It never occurred to me about the difference in priorities in dogs, it's taken me over 2 years to learn that hunting / chasing is what motivates her. That earning her rewards by catching or searching for them is more rewarding than directly from my hand, that the best way to engage her in tug is to drag the toy behind me, away from her, all these things are so obvious now!
From an early age she has been exposed to squirrels, deer and to a lesser extent pheasants, but rabbits and hares are more recent, it's the scent, not the sight that excites her. On Sunday, a training session went a bit wrong, I won't go into how but she was then madly on rabbit scent and a deer shot out of a bush in front of her -- she was still running, but stopped and watched it go, and then returned to us without a recall signal ! That is how that particular debacle came to an end!
It's about me finding away to prevent her leaving my side, which mostly now she stays close to me , it's going to me tough but I am hatching a plan!

 

[Selina27]

is there anyone with a rabbit pen in your area?

Is there such a thing as this specially for training? It's me that needs help with rabbits!

 

[snowbunny]

Is there such a thing as this specially for training? It's me that needs help with rabbits!

Yes, for sure! Lots of gundog trainers have them - or have access to them

 

[Heidrun]

Yes, for sure! Lots of gundog trainers have them - or have access to them

That's where the problem might be though. They will be all traditional trainers and they won't be renting out their rabbit pen to someone they don't know unless they accompany them and instruct them on what to do. Which might not necessarily be the way we would like to train.