Think using treats is bribery?
- Thread starter snowbunny
- Start date
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
No, I don't want her to do this -- I do however want her to have the satisfaction and fulfilment of using her undoubted ability, I'm dissatisfied with myself for as yet not having learnt to do it "with" her, if that makes sense.
SWMBO said I'm a control freak
which is laughable because I have zero desire to dominate or control any living thing But what I do have is a hard wired belief that a dog loose in the countryside is a bad thing.
In truth Cassie does return to me voluntarily, even when hunting, and what I need to do is learn to use this. If she gives chase , she doesn't go far and returns quicker than when just on a scent. Hares being the exception.
Interestingly, on the occasions when she could have caught something she hasn't, one being the cygnet she found make in the summer, and the other an injured pigeon trapped against a fence which was flapping and moving. She just sat and watched it.
Think I might have gone a bit off topic, sorry.
- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
Perhaps I should have said, the land here is rife with rabbits. Alex is a very prey driven dog. I don't actively encourage him to kill them but when he is off lead I don't try to stop him either. The rabbit isn't wasted. It gets eaten and doesn't suffer. He makes a quick, clean kill. After a life in a shelter I think he feels the need to express his inner predator freely in this way. He is always very proud of himself and always brings it back to my hand. With the high number of rabbits here I honestly believe I'd be mad to try and stop him.
I don't like to see an animal suffer either but Alex is who he is. I don't want to try to quash his personality.
I don't like to see an animal suffer either but Alex is who he is. I don't want to try to quash his personality.
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
Sure
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- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Hmm, I hope no-one thinks I was criticising them, that's not what I intended. Dogs will be dogs, they are designed to be predators and some exhibit that more than others. I think we have to do what we can to manage that, whilst understanding it. For example, some dogs would chase and kill cats, given the chance. Just because they are built that way doesn't mean we should allow it, that's clear. But sometimes people will laugh at their dogs chasing deer, and I don't think that's OK. Yes, they're designed to do it, but we should do what we can to stop them, just as we would if they wanted to chase sheep.
But also, not giving them an outlet for this instinctive behaviour can cause issues, which is why having acceptable ways of channelling it is great. Gundog work, sports such as lure coursing, barn hunt and so on are brilliant organised activities for this.
When you live surrounded by the prey, then you have choices to make as to what you find acceptable, and making that decision mindfully is the important part. My concern is whether I am able to call my dog from the hunt in case of danger to them. What type of prey the dog is interested in is a part of that. For me and my dogs, deer chasing is unacceptable because, other than the impact on the deer, they run over far longer distances, always in the trees and so the potential for danger out of sight is far greater. If they liked to chase geese and swans (and we came across them often), I'd clearly stop that because of the potential for physical harm. Same with wild boar - we go out of our way to minimise the risk because of the danger. With rabbits, I let W&S follow the scent trails within reason, but call them off if they get too excited, and when I'm out with Shadow alone, I expect him not to chase any rabbits we come across. I imagine that if we were frequently walking through fields full of them, they'd get bored of them pretty quickly. But they are not dogs that were designed to kill vermin, which is where Alex's heredity lies. Then, my choice would look different, because the influential factors are different. I'd likely end up choosing the same as you, which is to choose my battles, and have bunny stew for dinner. I still wouldn't allow deer, cat, goose, sheep, swan or wild boar chasing, though
But also, not giving them an outlet for this instinctive behaviour can cause issues, which is why having acceptable ways of channelling it is great. Gundog work, sports such as lure coursing, barn hunt and so on are brilliant organised activities for this.
When you live surrounded by the prey, then you have choices to make as to what you find acceptable, and making that decision mindfully is the important part. My concern is whether I am able to call my dog from the hunt in case of danger to them. What type of prey the dog is interested in is a part of that. For me and my dogs, deer chasing is unacceptable because, other than the impact on the deer, they run over far longer distances, always in the trees and so the potential for danger out of sight is far greater. If they liked to chase geese and swans (and we came across them often), I'd clearly stop that because of the potential for physical harm. Same with wild boar - we go out of our way to minimise the risk because of the danger. With rabbits, I let W&S follow the scent trails within reason, but call them off if they get too excited, and when I'm out with Shadow alone, I expect him not to chase any rabbits we come across. I imagine that if we were frequently walking through fields full of them, they'd get bored of them pretty quickly. But they are not dogs that were designed to kill vermin, which is where Alex's heredity lies. Then, my choice would look different, because the influential factors are different. I'd likely end up choosing the same as you, which is to choose my battles, and have bunny stew for dinner. I still wouldn't allow deer, cat, goose, sheep, swan or wild boar chasing, though
such a wimp with anything like that!
I learned a few years back that I shall do my utmost to prevent any of my dogs, now or in the future, to never chase and kill another animal.
A neighbour of mine, who has greyhounds and had a beautiful lurcher, walked his greyhounds on lead and the lurcher running free. Unfortunately when the deer appeared, his lurcher took off after them, no amount of calling got his dog back. He then spent a few hours looking for his dog, only to find her dead. He has no idea why she died but assumes her heart gave out.
This served as a warning to me, as I had the misfortune to meet him as he arrived home in tears because his constant companion was dead, all because she chased a deer.
A neighbour of mine, who has greyhounds and had a beautiful lurcher, walked his greyhounds on lead and the lurcher running free. Unfortunately when the deer appeared, his lurcher took off after them, no amount of calling got his dog back. He then spent a few hours looking for his dog, only to find her dead. He has no idea why she died but assumes her heart gave out.
This served as a warning to me, as I had the misfortune to meet him as he arrived home in tears because his constant companion was dead, all because she chased a deer.
All my teaching and helping my dogs with their behaviour, involves lots of reward. Not bribery.
In all the years I've had dogs, I have never had a dog, that had good recall. Thanks to the science of reward based training, I do now.
Is it bribery when both dogs get called in from the garden, go immediately to the fridge? No, it's the payment they get for stopping what they were doing and coming to me.
As Christmas is past, it's excellent payments of roast turkey.
In all the years I've had dogs, I have never had a dog, that had good recall. Thanks to the science of reward based training, I do now.
Is it bribery when both dogs get called in from the garden, go immediately to the fridge? No, it's the payment they get for stopping what they were doing and coming to me.
As Christmas is past, it's excellent payments of roast turkey.
Emily_Babbelhund
Mama Red HOT Pepper
- Location
- Regensburg, Germany
Ok, so maybe I'm bribing outdoors but doing well on the indoor bit.
Indoors treats could come from the magical pocket or from the cupboard or from the counter as there are stashes everywhere. He also does things for no treats at all...like 'off' and 'on' the bed/couch or holding still for his harness to be put on.
I definitely still think I'm a work in progress when it comes to treats vs. bribes, though. Carbon is kind of a 'treat mugger' outdoors in that he'll do specific behaviours and then very pointedly look at me to make sure I step to and get that treat out. Even weeing!
"Hey, I did a good wee there, didn't I? Treat, no?"
Then we have this very serious conversation about how just the relief of weeing is the reward - you don't get a cookie too. THEN Carbon regressed to trying to wee on the sides of buildings again, so... ugh...I've started treating him again for having a wee in the right place. Sigh. At least ONE of us is highly trainable.
Boogie
Moderator
- Location
- Manchester UK
I reward lots, bribe never.
But I do need to remind myself not to lure once the cue has been learned - luring can be very counter productive imo.
My supervisor says that when they look for a treat after doing well it’s a good thing - a sign of understanding the task. But they don’t get a treat every time once the task is well learned.
But I do need to remind myself not to lure once the cue has been learned - luring can be very counter productive imo.
My supervisor says that when they look for a treat after doing well it’s a good thing - a sign of understanding the task. But they don’t get a treat every time once the task is well learned.
- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
I completely agree @snowbunny and I would never allow him to chase Deer, Sheep etc. The risk to him would be way too much. He would chase cats if I let him but I don't. Indoors I have gated rooms for the cat and I recall him immediately if he tries it. The rabbits are a different matter though. You simply cannot walk two steps without seeing them. If I tried to recall him he would probably have to pass another dozen to come back to me. I think it would mess with his head if I tried it.
Bunny stew is getting to be a big part of our staple diet here.
Bunny stew is getting to be a big part of our staple diet here.
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
The Catalans do it with chocolate!
Or just a la brasa with a good aioli - yummers. But fiddly. You gotta work for your dinner with rabbit.
- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
It can be fiddly but my sons like it breaded and deep fried. They will eat that as if it is southern fried chicken. I love the idea of doing it with chocolate though. I have done venison with chocolate. Yum!
- Location
- Andorra and Spain
Still think that, @Selina27? @Aitch and I seem to have turned it into a cookery show
Going back to the questions @Emily_Babbelhund had, I was thinking about the definition of a bribe as I was on my walk. I think the issue is, when that is part of your cue. In the same way that your cue isn't clean if you tilt your head when you say the word, and your dog can't understand the word without the tilt. We always want to ensure that our cue is precisely what we mean it to be. So if your dog can only perform the behaviour when the food is present, you can say that the food is part of the cue.
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
Yes, that can happen to lurchers, they can literally burst blood vessels running and never stopping.
@Aitch, it sounds like Alex is performing a really useful function! I haven't had rabbit for years. He's only doing what many dogs have been bred to do alongside mankind to do, I know that
.Haha, in true MLF tradition!
- Location
- Herefordshire, UK
I think it really helps to think of it as rewards, not treats. It does for me anyway, keeps me focused on the fact she has to "earn" her kibble or cheese or sausage!
- Location
- Buckinghamshire UK
If somebody asks if they can give my dogs a treat I tell them that they have to earn it and get them hold back until I've asked the dogs to do something. Then they may give the treat. If nothing else it's a conversation starter.
Atemas
UK Tour Guide
- Location
- North Cambridgeshire
This is an interesting question to me at the moment. DH has decided not to treat anymore and he does the main off lead walks daily. He stopped a few weeks ago. He does however have a small pot of treats in his bumbag along with whistle. He never gave Sky treats and when Red was a puppy it took a lot of work on my part to get him to treat. He did because he saw the results. I still treat on the short walk I give Red every evening - this is on lead and she walks beautifully to heal. On the odd occasion she reacts to something, usually another dog (but not all dogs). I have treats in my hand - she know I do and when I say ‘this way’ she comes with me. Sometimes I have to lure but rarely. So for me treats are still okay. I feel a bit uncomfortable that DH has faded the treats but accept it. I do treat both dogs when they come in from his walks and they have let me dry them. I rarely treat in the house or garden.
I just try to think of it from a human point of view.
If my boss stopped paying me would I listen to a word he said - nope!
If he cut my pay in half would I work half as hard - yup!
I know I’m a buggar for bribing Stanley but I really believe in the theory of it. If you get a reward for doing well you’re much more likely to keep trying than if you don’t get anything.
If my boss stopped paying me would I listen to a word he said - nope!
If he cut my pay in half would I work half as hard - yup!
I know I’m a buggar for bribing Stanley but I really believe in the theory of it. If you get a reward for doing well you’re much more likely to keep trying than if you don’t get anything.
- Location
- Argyll & Bute, Scotland