Training with a professional field trialler

[Peartree]

This week I had to message a trialler about a subject and surprisingly I was offered the chance to have a 121 session with them. I decided that it was too good an opportunity to miss and spent over an hour today with my one year old dog working through various exercises.

I’m still reeling at how much more my little Pickle can do. I was so surprised at what was expected and I’m still wondering if all the helpful equipment such as place boards and electric posts is as helpful as we all think. There was a lot of asking her to think for herself and I wasn’t allowed to help her. I’ve spent the evening wondering if we ‘baby’ our dogs too much and take the challenge out of the exercises and make it too boring for them.

Today my little pup did left and right directional blinds, stop whistle at a distance and was recalled and reset on blinds when she went wrong without losing any enthusiasm for her retrieving. All this was a first for her.

 

[Selina27]

How interesting @Peartree, what a great opportunity for you and pickle. Sounds like you had a good time, will you be going again?

 

[Joy]

I'd love to hear a bit more about your lesson and how it differed from your normal approach. I have very little knowledge about gundog training but I wonder if the amount we need to break down the learning into small chunks will depend on the individual dog's personality and what they find rewarding. (I would think this is true in all dog sports.) For example I imagine that a dog who finds running very enjoyable will not mind being recalled and sent out again, whereas a dog who is really focused on finding the object / hunting may be more frustrated. I'm just musing aloud here - keen to hear your thoughts.

 

[FayRose]

That sounds like a really good session. Presumably you've done trailling before? The directional blinds is surely a tricky concept in the early days?

We've been doing gun dog training, unfortunately halted when we went into lockdown but were still at the early stages. We'd just got to the 'go back' to retrieve the dummy and were due to move on to the next stage when it all had to stop.
I'm still practising what we'd learned so far but I daren't move on in case I get it wrong. I know it's more difficult to re-learn something rather than start from scratch and I'm also trying to avoid Molly getting bored - not easy.

I'm longing for us to be able to get back to our lessons. I'd be very interested to hear how Pickle progresses.

 

[Peartree]

This trialler is someone who qualifies dogs for the IGL championship most years and so is very successful. I was most interested in what they had to say as it was so different from how I have taught my dogs.

I’m trying to teach my dogs with very little error and have a rule that I try something twice and then reset the exercise so that I make it easier so that the dog succeeds. I was told that they teach completely differently and that they are teaching the dog concepts rather than patterns. This means that the dogs start to think for themselves rather than anticipating that the exercise will follow a certain pattern.

For example; to teach blinds I would get someone to throw a marked retrieve and then when the dog was on the way back the thrower would put out another unseen. I could then send my dog back to the same memory spot where he would find a dummy. They argued that all I was doing was teaching the dog that pattern and not to think for itself. Food for thought as I had discovered when out with another friend recently that when I tried to send a dog back for a memory a third time in the same spot I had huge hesitation. This made me think that the dogs anticipate getting two retrieve in an area and no more.

 

[Peartree]

I have wondered whether breaking the process down into small chunks is easy teaching that means that the class goes at the rate of the slowest person and their dog. I have been doing a few zoom classes and the best thing for me is being able to tailor the exercise to what I thought my dogs were capable of doing rather than exactly as directed.

I had always wondered how these triallers get their dogs to do such distances and understand complex instructions at such an early age. The exercises are not so different but the way they are taught is very different. The dog is allowed to go wrong and the exercise is set up again and again. I always thought that this would put a dog off and make them go ‘flat’ but with little Pickle I was so surprised that she was willing to come back and try again and again. The dog has to fail in order to learn - totally different from the way I would normally teach my dogs

 

[Peartree]

I'd love to hear a bit more about your lesson and how it differed from your normal approach. I have very little knowledge about gundog training but I wonder if the amount we need to break down the learning into small chunks will depend on the individual dog's personality and what they find rewarding. (I would think this is true in all dog sports.) For example I imagine that a dog who finds running very enjoyable will not mind being recalled and sent out again, whereas a dog who is really focused on finding the object / hunting may be more frustrated. I'm just musing aloud here - keen to hear your thoughts.

Like you I thought the same but was so surprised that it wasn’t obvious that Pickle was getting frustrated at all. Stopping her on the whistle when she went wrong, recalling her and setting her up again, she was quite happy to repeat. In fact by the third stop she was anticipating the recall and coming back of her own accord. The reason that it was so difficult was that I was trying to push her on a blind on a track parallel to a previous found dummy so she kept deviating from the track to go back to the memory spot and not trust my arm directions.

 

[Peartree]

How interesting @Peartree, what a great opportunity for you and pickle. Sounds like you had a good time, will you be going again?

I don’t think I will go again unless I want to see if she had improved. It’s pretty intense and I like going to my classes and having a chat with my friends as much as the training.

 

[Peartree]

That sounds like a really good session. Presumably you've done trailling before? The directional blinds is surely a tricky concept in the early days?

Indeed directional blinds are tricky and something I would never have tried on my own with such a young dog. Pickle has only just had her first birthday! In fact, at first Pickle had a memory and because there was an electric pole in the rough grass she kept running to the pole and ignoring the dummy which was quite frustrating for me. This is when I was having a think that teaching to go to posts might not be quite as helpful as I perhaps thought!

 

[Stacia]

Indeed directional blinds are tricky and something I would never have tried on my own with such a young dog. Pickle has only just had her first birthday! In fact, at first Pickle had a memory and because there was an electric pole in the rough grass she kept running to the pole and ignoring the dummy which was quite frustrating for me. This is when I was having a think that teaching to go to posts might not be quite as helpful as I perhaps thought!

Yes, always send them between posts after they have got the idea of going straight, think we use posts more for us to remember where the dummy is Your lesson sounded fascinating, wish I had a young dog again.

 

[FayRose]

Thanks for all that information @Peartree .

This is all way beyond anything we've got to so I'm well out of my depth! I do though wish I'd started gun dog training with Molly earlier, even though she is very enthusiastic. She was just 3 when we started - I wonder how much better it would have been if we'd started when she was a year.

 

[Joy]

Very interesting.

 

[Peartree]

Thanks for all that information @Peartree .

This is all way beyond anything we've got to so I'm well out of my depth! I do though wish I'd started gun dog training with Molly earlier, even though she is very enthusiastic. She was just 3 when we started - I wonder how much better it would have been if we'd started when she was a year.

I have friend that had a super dog and she didn’t start Gundog training with her until she was 3 so I don’t think you should be too sure that you won’t get to your goal. There is a lot to having an older sensible dog to work with.

 

[FayRose]

That is encouraging.
Whatever we achieve or don't achieve though, I'll stick with it so long as Molly is enjoying it. That was the original purpose, to give her some 'brian' work and she certainly took to it.

 

[Beanwood]

Sounds like a fascinating lesson, just a little jealous!

I had always wondered how these triallers get their dogs to do such distances and understand complex instructions at such an early age. The exercises are not so different but the way they are taught is very different.

I do wonder if we inadvertently train our dogs to anticipate a certain distance. Most of the time the retrieves we give our dogs are at the limit of our throwing range. Of course in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter a hoot, but, if we are looking to encourage our dogs to go a greater distance and then hunt, or change direction, then maybe this could cause a hiccup or two. I find this interesting because I have worked with Otter rather back to front. She has never had a ball, or dummy thrown for her, largely because of her injury, as the stress of "stop, start" on her joints whilst in rehab would be detrimental. Instead we went straight to memory retrieves. I would walk with Otter at quite variable distances, combined with cover, and often using a target pole as marker, or just letting her hunt an area. Nothing rigid, so I guess she was picking this up as a concept as we are not really working in a formal fashion. I preferred her to hunt, as this helped her slow down naturally in the area of the dummy, and not race directly towards the article with an abrupt stop.
With details though, such as a good hold, and delivery to hand, I have worked on separately, then just stitched the entire retrieve chain together. The other interesting observation, is heelwork in relation to training. Otter is a bugger to train heelwork, I can almost see her yawning! Getting her to sit nicely at my side, is well a challenge! Yet, to my surprise, when she is watching @Mr Beanwood prepare a mark for her ( this means he is standing at some distance with a dummy ready to throw for her), she sashays perfectly into position, eyes forward and honed on him.

 

[Selina27]

Interesting read @Beanwood .

I think Cassie's early experience of dummies was marred really by trying to do too many easily seen retrieves that just didn't interest her. In my ignorance I thought that she had to do those before she could move on to memories/blinds. But nothing could be further from the case as as soon as I started doing memories, and then simple searches her interest was rekindled.

Otter is a bugger to train heelwork, I can almost see her yawning!

Oh I'm pleased Cass is not the only one.

 

[Peartree]

This was all a bit jaw dropping for me as we must have skipped at least 6 months worth of lessons in an hour. I had no idea that she would run out on a blind retrieve, that I had any sort of stop whistle at a distance of 70 yards or that I could repeat again and again with her. I’ve been left really wondering if the way we teach our dogs is really the best way. This trialler teaches the dogs ‘blinds‘ FIRST! I just couldn’t get my head around it, it’s just so contrary to everything that I’ve been told. Their dogs will run straight at speed in the direction that the handler points until it comes across a dummy or a stop whistle is blown.


I tried again yesterday, sitting Pickle up and then walking out and putting out a dummy and then slipping an unseen snipe dummy out another 25 yards further on. It was a new place and I used a gap between a small avenue of trees to keep her on a straight line. She went out for the seen dummy and then went back again for the blind. So she certainly learn from her experiences yesterday.

Sounds like a fascinating lesson, just a little jealous!



I do wonder if we inadvertently train our dogs to anticipate a certain distance. Most of the time the retrieves we give our dogs are at the limit of our throwing range. Of course in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter a hoot, but, if we are looking to encourage our dogs to go a greater distance and then hunt, or change direction, then maybe this could cause a hiccup or two. I find this interesting because I have worked with Otter rather back to front. She has never had a ball, or dummy thrown for her, largely because of her injury, as the stress of "stop, start" on her joints whilst in rehab would be detrimental. Instead we went straight to memory retrieves. I would walk with Otter at quite variable distances, combined with cover, and often using a target pole as marker, or just letting her hunt an area. Nothing rigid, so I guess she was picking this up as a concept as we are not really working in a formal fashion. I preferred her to hunt, as this helped her slow down naturally in the area of the dummy, and not race directly towards the article with an abrupt stop.
With details though, such as a good hold, and delivery to hand, I have worked on separately, then just stitched the entire retrieve chain together. The other interesting observation, is heelwork in relation to training. Otter is a bugger to train heelwork, I can almost see her yawning! Getting her to sit nicely at my side, is well a challenge! Yet, to my surprise, when she is watching @Mr Beanwood prepare a mark for her ( this means he is standing at some distance with a dummy ready to throw for her), she sashays perfectly into position, eyes forward and honed on him.

I think that while it’s sad that you had such an early experience with Otter it’s wonderful that you discovered a way to train her that works for you and her. I do think that we always have to find ways that challenge our dogs and keep them interested and always wondering what is going to happen next.
I love that she has worked out exactly what she needs to do at heel in order that she gets a retrieve thrown even if it’s boring heel work!

Don’t get me wrong Pickle is no perfect pup. I had to put her on lead in order to get her to heel between set ups as she was much more interested in sniffing grass than keeping on line with me. The trialler had put out all these blinds before the lesson down various tracks and we had to move about quite a bit to get to the right part of the field.

 

[Natalie]

@Peartree - Bear is just 12 weeks old. I'm not sure what we are going to do yet, but I get the feeling we are definitely going to have to do something with him - he's clearly very bright. (Not like poor Monty bless him, who isn't the sharpest tool in the box)

Not sure if this would be gundog work, it's far too early to say. But taking into account this thread, what would you do differently with a very young puppy, if Pickle were now as young as Bear? Or do you think it's just too early, and this doesn't change the fact there are still all the basics to learn anyway - stop whistle, walking to heel, carrying and returning a dummy?

 

[Peartree]

I would make sure that I had an recall that was absolutely rock solid as that is such keystone of training.

Pickle came having had a recall whistle blown before every meal and that made such an enormous difference. Both to how easy it was to get her back, and how positive an experience recall became but also what I could do with her in terms of training BECAUSE I was confident that I could recall her from almost every situation. If you haven’t done it, I would highly recommend blowing your whistle every time before you feed at 12 weeks.

I also worked through the back chained clicker retrieve from Jo Lauren with Pickle starting at ten weeks. While you may not want to end up doing gundog work, having a dog that will bring you stuff and is happy to swop for food and has no resource guarding is such a brilliant life skill for all dogs.

@Peartree - Bear is just 12 weeks old. I'm not sure what we are going to do yet, but I get the feeling we are definitely going to have to do something with him - he's clearly very bright. (Not like poor Monty bless him, who isn't the sharpest tool in the box)

Not sure if this would be gundog work, it's far too early to say. But taking into account this thread, what would you do differently with a very young puppy, if Pickle were now as young as Bear? Or do you think it's just too early, and this doesn't change the fact there are still all the basics to learn anyway - stop whistle, walking to heel, carrying and returning a dummy?

I would also work at doing what ever I could to make my dog as confident as possible. My experience is that the show type labs are far more confident than the working and I have been quite protective of Pickle so that she hasn’t had much to deal with (especially in terms of other dogs) that has scared her. I’ve really not let her interact with any dogs on walks that I didn’t know and we’ve done very little group walking. She has other dogs at home that she can play with but not finding out that other dogs are great fun has been key in keeping her engaged with me.

 

[Beanwood]

I would also work at doing what ever I could to make my dog as confident as possible. My experience is that the show type labs are far more confident than the working and I have been quite protective of Pickle so that she hasn’t had much to deal with (especially in terms of other dogs) that has scared her.

Absolutely this. Otter and Benson have such interesting and similar nuances, yet in some respects they are very different. Otter is working line, and a lot of what she does in the field so to speak is instinctive. She has a natural ability to mark, and work at distance, but she is a hothead, very, drivey.

All our early work was about lifestyle skills, 100%. Building on confidence, resilience and a super close bond with me. Otter didn't have the best start, a single point event at the vets hit her hard on an emotional level, ripping her natural resilience away at a very sensitive developmental age. This coupled with most of her puppy life being on lead, and then only off- lead for 5 minutes a day at 9 months old. We didn't do any formal training, everything was built into games and fun. We couldn't work on recall for obvious reasons, but she has the best recall out of the four of them. Literally, will turn on a sixpence.

Personally, if we work on trust (think emotional bank accounts...) build on lifestyle skills meaning confidence, allowing our dogs to problem solve in a safe, fun environment, layering the tasks based on the dog in front of us, taking into account how we are both feeling in that moment, you won't go far wrong!