Cassie's Gundog training log

[snowbunny]

Why do you need to be slower with payment with marking? I thought it was supposed to be instant ish.

Other than helping with calmness, another reason is to build in the idea of delayed reinforcement. Sometimes we can't give them the reinforcer immediately, so teaching them that it is coming, but might take a little while to appear, saves frustration.

So, once she's heading towards me put high value rewards on the ground for her to see, doesn't matter if she drops the dummy down once she's back. Not to stress about delivery to hand etc, because quite frankly if she doesn't return with the dummy that's not going to happen anyway.

I'm using this technique with Squidge at the moment, just started very recently but it is already working really well. She has a very solid delivery to hand if she comes back, but she can muck around with the dummy a bit first, so clicking on her return and putting the treats on the floor is giving her the information that coming back is good. I'm still practicing on delivery to hand outside of the retrieve chain, so breaking that chain with the treats on the floor leading to the spit isn't a bother.

 

[Stacia]

I don't think I agree with putting the treats on the ground so that the dog comes back and drops the dummy, as you are now teaching the dog to drop the dummy! Surely a good recall and a good hand touch is a better way to start? I think backward training is the best way. I was once told many years ago, teach what you want otherwise you will have to teach the dog all over again

 

[snowbunny]

I understand what you're saying, @Jelinga, and that was my concern too, but the difference is you're working on a particular part of the retrieve chain - the coming back to you. As it was explained to me, we are specifically breaking that chain by having the treats on the floor, and I don't give my "deliver" cue. Once I am confident in my return, I won't need the treats anymore and I can complete the chain. It's very important the chain is broken when you have a dog who likes to play keep-away - if you were to recall after the nuttiness started and then get the delivery, you're building that nuttiness into the chain. If you have to recall to prevent the nuttiness, you're reliant on that recall as part of the chain. So, instead, we're just working on the middle part of the chain. I click as soon as she picks up, and I continue to click as she returns to me. She needs reinforcement for those clicks, and seeing the food on the floor is that. It would actually be detrimental to have her deliver the dummy to hand when I'm using this method.

It's not something I had to do with Willow or Shadow, but with Luna, she's far more interested in having fun than she is in "getting things right", and she knows how to make her own fun - this is something I have to be very aware with with her and not let her rehearse it. I need to keep her engaged to be a part of that and this method is really working - which is the main thing

 

[Beanwood]

It's a tricky one! With Bramble, we back chained a great hold, then deliberately broke the hold to increase confidence on the return with a dummy. Bramble is bright and clever, so it has been easy to reinstate the hold, but I needed a really "happy" return. I didn't want the uncertain creep back with a retrieve to be reinforced as a mindset through repetition. Confidence at this stage was worth the trade-off of the dummy being dropped. Addressing her emotional state by helping her "fake it" has a been a big step forward.

It did look all wrong to a lot of people, to me though it's more about training the dog in front of me, at the same time having a really clear plan as to how to proceed through the stages.

With Benson, this required a completely different approach, his confidence is sky high! But he isn't as eager to please as Bramble. His interest is in the retrieve itself, I am kinda irrelevant at this point!

 

[Selina27]

to me though it's more about training the dog in front of me

Yes it really is, there's no two ways about it.
I'm not after perfection, just a happy dog.
@Jelinga She knows well enough about delivery to hand, I don't see why it shouldn't come back. She will often find a toy in the house and spend a few minutes just shoving it into by hand. She will retrieve to hand in a low distraction environment. But in a field full of dogs and smelling of geese there was plenty to distract her.
And there's no getting round the fact that if she doesn't bring the dummy to me I can't get a hand delivery anyway.

 

[Beanwood]

Other than helping with calmness, another reason is to build in the idea of delayed reinforcement. Sometimes we can't give them the reinforcer immediately, so teaching them that it is coming, but might take a little while to appear, saves frustration.

This is interesting, and this is the method I used to add duration to "off lead" walking to heel with Bramble. I do, however, use a secondary reinforcer such as "good girl" so she knows she is on the right track.

 

[snowbunny]

This is interesting, and this is the method I used to add duration to "off lead" walking to heel with Bramble. I do, however, use a secondary reinforcer such as "good girl" so she knows she is on the right track.

Well, if you remember that everything between the event marker and the reinforcement is itself being reinforced, it's a great way to build duration. Rather than two steps - click - feed, you can do two steps - click - two steps - feed, meaning you get more bang for your buck, reinforcement-wise. Of course, you can't take it to extremes; it still needs to be within a close enough timeframe that the dog associates the reinforcer with the click, but it means we have a bit of leeway between our marker and the reinforcer.

 

[Stacia]

I understand but still wouldn't do it that way

 

[Selina27]

Well, we've been practicing our homework!
The counting to 3 after clicking for handtouch takes a surprising about of concentration from both of us, it's quite revealing how calming it is for both of us to have that delay.
She has recalled really well from the few dogs we've met out and about, but going to them is still a bit of an issue, I want to try and set up a couple of proper training sessions if I can.
The high value reward has made a massive difference to her enjoyment of retrieving, she doesn't always spit the dummy out, and I'm confident the trainer will take us to the next link. It's good to see her enthusiastic, and this morning we did some retrieving in the woods, where in the past she has had no interest in picking up a dummy at all. Really, absolutely none. But she really enjoyed herself today, it means I can use the rough cover she loves to get in amongst, having checked for wildlife first! Especially memories. And of course it means she has less opportunity for self rewarding by free running on a scent .
So steady steps forward

 

[kateincornwall]

This is a lovely read ! I just adore reading positive posts , well done to both xxx

 

[snowbunny]

Wonderful progress, well done Cassie! And, of course, you too @Selina27

 

[MellowYellow]

Sounds great, well done!!!

 

[HAH]

That’s lovely to read @Selina27 - well done you and Cassie. I find it really encouraging at our far more basic levels to read about and learn from your experiences. Last night I discovered that roast pork gets a FAR more reliable Middle than kibble. Definitely upping the ante on this...!

 

[Charlie]

You girls are doing so well, I'm jealous! xx

 

[Selina27]

Wonderful progress, well done Cassie! And, of course, you too @Selina27

Well you know, it's all come about through joining TLF and now MLF, giving me all the pointers! (no pun intended).
@kateincornwall , I'm pleased you like the post, it's great to be able to share the up's and the downs on here!

far more basic levels

We are very basic ! But I know what you mean, I've definitely been spurred on by others who are further down this particular road.
@Charlie -- don't be jealous, don't think you need to be!

 

[Stacia]

Well done @Selina27, I could see that Cassie has a lot of natural ability when we met.

 

[UncleBob]

Thanks for the update. Really pleased that you are making progress (and enjoying the process too!). Well done Cassie and Selina

 

[Selina27]

I could see that Cassie has a lot of natural ability when we met.

I think, truth to tell, her natural ability out weighs my training expertise … but maybe I'm catching up now ..

 

[Stacia]

I think, truth to tell, her natural ability out weighs my training expertise … but maybe I'm catching up now ..

Not at all! Have faith in yourself, just remember you are learning as well, great fun

 

[Selina27]

After nearly four weeks of not having lost Cassie to free running on a scent we did have a set back at the end of last week, when she suddenly took off right from my side and disappeared into a rhodo dendron thicket. Not chasing, purely hunting so I was a bit fed up about that. But on analyzing things I think it's fair to say I had dropped my guard a bit in that particular environment and got rather lax -- basically if I don't give her stuff to do, she will find it herself. But it's so difficult since I don't know where the temptation is! Never mind, on we go!!
On the upside, we went out to do some retrieving today. Since I can't throw very far, I'm trying to build up the distance on the memories, especially since seeing @Lara_Pigletina video's. So I really pushed the boat out today and got her to walk to heel further a way from the dummy than ever before. She set off eagerly but not far enough, but I could see she was really hunting for it, and sort of had one eye on me whilst searching. She went back each time I told her too, but in the end I did move back towards the dummy. By this time I'd forgotten which tussock grass I'd hidden it in ! But she found it and was soooo pleased with herself! And I was pleased with her too, to see her hunt for something I wanted her to and using her thinking cells!
We did a couple of marked retrieves but my throwing is very inadequate, and a shorter memory to keep her confidence.
And I nearly forgot to say, although I did have warm sausage on me, each time she brought the dummy to hand, so no dropping it today!