Help! I'm at my wits end

TIKO, the chihuaha next door, with whom there is a longstanding rivalry...has learned that if he barks from anywhere on his property, Shamas will bark back. this is not friendly, "hey, how ya doin?" barking...it's two dogs claiming territory through house walls. Standing on hind legs, barking at the top of his lungs back at tiko, and running accross the house trying to find him.

I need to get an alternate, behavior in place with Shamas- something high-value to over-ride the urge to respond to TIKO's challenge

I don't want to mess up and reward his response to Tiko..I want to get his attention elsewhere, and stop him from feeling the need to respond
 

Atemas

UK Tour Guide
Yes I did read this and thought it similar. Only difference is that ours is a garden issue, not a house one although if we are in the conservatory and those dogs start to snarl you can sometimes hear it and Red used to bark. Certainly all our work last year is paying off big time - it’s not completely gone but we feel in control and if we hear the snarls before Red does, we can diffuse with just quiet words. If we are in the garden, we can diffuse it by just talking quietly to her. Bless her, you see her mouth puckering up as if she’s going to bark and she stops herself. Last year was hard work but worth it. Can‘t remember where I posted it all @Shamas mom but happy to say how we did it if you think it will help
 

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
We used sprats with Tatze, smelly but they worked. Every time we heard the Westie next door we called Tatze and treated her with sprats (kept in ziplock bags).

Now she hears Lola yapping and comes straight to me.

Echo doesn’t do alert or reactive barking - he does attention barking - and ignoring him just makes him more persistent :facepalm:
 
he does attention barking - and ignoring him just makes him more persistent
Reinforcement drives behaviour. He wouldn't continue with the behaviour if he wasn't being reinforced for it. This doesn't mean that you are reinforcing him, but if he wasn't reinforced, he wouldn't continue to do it. Look for the reinforcer, and then work out a way he can get access to that reinforcement through an alternative, acceptable, behaviour. If it's a case that he truly is barking for attention, and he is intermittently given that attention when he does bark, then it would explain him escalating when he is ignored - he's just trying harder at the behaviour. So your task then would be to work out the antecedents of the barking, and manage those so that he doesn't end up in the position of feeling he has to bark for attention. Plus train him another acceptable behaviour, which provides him a way of asking for that thing he needs and gives his a far higher chance of reinforcement. Squidge - who used to bark when she needed interaction - now offers a chin rest on my leg instead.
 

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
train him another acceptable behaviour, which provides him a way of asking for that thing he needs and gives his a far higher chance of reinforcement. Squidge - who used to bark when she needed interaction - now offers a chin rest on my leg instead.
How do you unpick this Fiona? How did you start to move Squidge's behaviour from barking to a chin rest?
 
How do you unpick this Fiona? How did you start to move Squidge's behaviour from barking to a chin rest?
Well, first off was realising that I should reframe my thoughts on it. "Attention barking" makes it sounds like it's "bad". Instead, I started to look at it as simply communication: she was telling me she needed something. In the same way as I wanted her to ask when she needed to go to the toilet, she was just telling me when she needed interaction.
So, first off, work out what triggered it. For her, it was quite straightforward. She needed interaction after waking from a snooze, and at regular intervals throughout the day. So I worked on incrementally increasing the time she could manage without interaction, in exactly the same way as you build duration with anything - slowly, and trying not to push too fast, too soon and trigger the unwanted behaviour. Most importantly, when she did bark, I gave her that interaction. Reframing it as a NEED helps to get through the brain fuzz with this ("aren't I reinforcing the bad behaviour?"). My puppy NEEDS the toilet, but is barking to go out... would I make the puppy wait until she'd stopped barking? Only if I wanted a puddle! The NEED doesn't get any less by denying them the thing they're asking for. She wasn't "demanding", as many people label it; she was just asking in the only way she knew how. So, try to prevent the behaviour happening, but appreciate that if it does, you've just asked too much.

The toilet training analogy is really useful, because, yes, we are clearly running the risk of reinforcing (strengthening) the behaviour, but the same is true of a puppy peeing on your rug: that is intrinsically reinforcing, because it relieves the discomfort of a full bladder. Does this mean that a puppy who pees on your rug will continue to do so ad infinitum? No, it means you need to ensure you become more aware of the triggers and get the puppy outside BEFORE she pees on the rug. And you have to make that experience (peeing outside) so much MORE reinforcing than just voiding where they want, so they start seeking out the "outside". So you're going to train your dog to start seeking out the behaviour of asking with the chin rest (or whatever), because it's more reinforcing than barking. And, of course, just as a puppy's bladder strengthens as they get older, so too does their ability to go longer between interactions with you.

I'll say right now that I didn't necessarily intend for her chin rest to become her "please", but what I did do is ensure that every single time she approached me with an appropriate behaviour, I would give her attention. If she brought me a toy, I played with her. If she nudged me, I played with her. If she stared at me, I played with her. Even if I didn't have the time for a long session, I would play for thirty seconds or a minute. As a happy coincidence, during this time we were working on proofing chin rests on my knee in training sessions throughout the day, so she was getting loads of reinforcement and interaction for that one behaviour. One day, I got the chin rest while I was working and without me asking, and, because it was something I was already working on, she got a huge party for it. She's the queen of single trial learning, so she decided from thereon in that this was something that worked for her, and she's done it ever since. She also transferred it to asking if she can come up on the sofa or many other things. It's a great behaviour, because she can really target the thing she wants and use her very expressive eyes to stare between it and me :D

It's certainly something I will train with purpose in the future.
 

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
Fantastic, thank you! This will work an absolute treat with Kipper who is sometimes stuck in the “why don’t you understand?” camp. And vice versa of course, I’ve definitely said it to him before. I really love the shift in focus to them trying to communicate something, which I’ve been thinking for a while - it definitely helps to concentrate on what they’re trying to say rather than focusing on the behaviour you’re trying to reduce/avoid. As an example, this afternoon Kipper woke up and was clearly a bit bored, so sat for a while staring at me. Then he started a little reedy squeak, which I acknowledged with ‘in a minute’. He waited like a sausage for a few minutes. Then he started vocalizing more, and I knew I’d just pushed it too far and he was saying ‘you said in a minute...’. We went for a play, then settled down again for another stretch. Now to work on a chin rest... :)
 
Well, first off was realising that I should reframe my thoughts on it. "Attention barking" makes it sounds like it's "bad". Instead, I started to look at it as simply communication: she was telling me she needed something. In the same way as I wanted her to ask when she needed to go to the toilet, she was just telling me when she needed interaction.
So, first off, work out what triggered it. For her, it was quite straightforward. She needed interaction after waking from a snooze, and at regular intervals throughout the day. So I worked on incrementally increasing the time she could manage without interaction, in exactly the same way as you build duration with anything - slowly, and trying not to push too fast, too soon and trigger the unwanted behaviour. Most importantly, when she did bark, I gave her that interaction. Reframing it as a NEED helps to get through the brain fuzz with this ("aren't I reinforcing the bad behaviour?"). My puppy NEEDS the toilet, but is barking to go out... would I make the puppy wait until she'd stopped barking? Only if I wanted a puddle! The NEED doesn't get any less by denying them the thing they're asking for. She wasn't "demanding", as many people label it; she was just asking in the only way she knew how. So, try to prevent the behaviour happening, but appreciate that if it does, you've just asked too much.

The toilet training analogy is really useful, because, yes, we are clearly running the risk of reinforcing (strengthening) the behaviour, but the same is true of a puppy peeing on your rug: that is intrinsically reinforcing, because it relieves the discomfort of a full bladder. Does this mean that a puppy who pees on your rug will continue to do so ad infinitum? No, it means you need to ensure you become more aware of the triggers and get the puppy outside BEFORE she pees on the rug. And you have to make that experience (peeing outside) so much MORE reinforcing than just voiding where they want, so they start seeking out the "outside". So you're going to train your dog to start seeking out the behaviour of asking with the chin rest (or whatever), because it's more reinforcing than barking. And, of course, just as a puppy's bladder strengthens as they get older, so too does their ability to go longer between interactions with you.

I'll say right now that I didn't necessarily intend for her chin rest to become her "please", but what I did do is ensure that every single time she approached me with an appropriate behaviour, I would give her attention. If she brought me a toy, I played with her. If she nudged me, I played with her. If she stared at me, I played with her. Even if I didn't have the time for a long session, I would play for thirty seconds or a minute. As a happy coincidence, during this time we were working on proofing chin rests on my knee in training sessions throughout the day, so she was getting loads of reinforcement and interaction for that one behaviour. One day, I got the chin rest while I was working and without me asking, and, because it was something I was already working on, she got a huge party for it. She's the queen of single trial learning, so she decided from thereon in that this was something that worked for her, and she's done it ever since. She also transferred it to asking if she can come up on the sofa or many other things. It's a great behaviour, because she can really target the thing she wants and use her very expressive eyes to stare between it and me :D

It's certainly something I will train with purpose in the future.
I feel like a right div now. Monty chin rests on my leg loads and I've never put it on cue. It's the precursor to hurrumphing and then attention barking. I really need to do more to praise this and then react pre-emptively to the attention barking. He's done most of the job for me and I feel stupid for not working on this. Cheers Fiona !
 

Candy

Biscuit Tin Guardian
Well, first off was realising that I should reframe my thoughts on it. "Attention barking" makes it sounds like it's "bad". Instead, I started to look at it as simply communication: she was telling me she needed something. In the same way as I wanted her to ask when she needed to go to the toilet, she was just telling me when she needed interaction.
So, first off, work out what triggered it. For her, it was quite straightforward. She needed interaction after waking from a snooze, and at regular intervals throughout the day. So I worked on incrementally increasing the time she could manage without interaction, in exactly the same way as you build duration with anything - slowly, and trying not to push too fast, too soon and trigger the unwanted behaviour. Most importantly, when she did bark, I gave her that interaction. Reframing it as a NEED helps to get through the brain fuzz with this ("aren't I reinforcing the bad behaviour?"). My puppy NEEDS the toilet, but is barking to go out... would I make the puppy wait until she'd stopped barking? Only if I wanted a puddle! The NEED doesn't get any less by denying them the thing they're asking for. She wasn't "demanding", as many people label it; she was just asking in the only way she knew how. So, try to prevent the behaviour happening, but appreciate that if it does, you've just asked too much.

The toilet training analogy is really useful, because, yes, we are clearly running the risk of reinforcing (strengthening) the behaviour, but the same is true of a puppy peeing on your rug: that is intrinsically reinforcing, because it relieves the discomfort of a full bladder. Does this mean that a puppy who pees on your rug will continue to do so ad infinitum? No, it means you need to ensure you become more aware of the triggers and get the puppy outside BEFORE she pees on the rug. And you have to make that experience (peeing outside) so much MORE reinforcing than just voiding where they want, so they start seeking out the "outside". So you're going to train your dog to start seeking out the behaviour of asking with the chin rest (or whatever), because it's more reinforcing than barking. And, of course, just as a puppy's bladder strengthens as they get older, so too does their ability to go longer between interactions with you.

I'll say right now that I didn't necessarily intend for her chin rest to become her "please", but what I did do is ensure that every single time she approached me with an appropriate behaviour, I would give her attention. If she brought me a toy, I played with her. If she nudged me, I played with her. If she stared at me, I played with her. Even if I didn't have the time for a long session, I would play for thirty seconds or a minute. As a happy coincidence, during this time we were working on proofing chin rests on my knee in training sessions throughout the day, so she was getting loads of reinforcement and interaction for that one behaviour. One day, I got the chin rest while I was working and without me asking, and, because it was something I was already working on, she got a huge party for it. She's the queen of single trial learning, so she decided from thereon in that this was something that worked for her, and she's done it ever since. She also transferred it to asking if she can come up on the sofa or many other things. It's a great behaviour, because she can really target the thing she wants and use her very expressive eyes to stare between it and me :D

It's certainly something I will train with purpose in the future.
Yes! I think once you stop seeing a behaviour as 'bad' and start thinking 'what is she/he trying to tell me? ' it changes the whole game. I know my GGJ would never mean to be 'bad' I don't think that concept is really there for dogs, so now I just ask myself what she's trying to tell me.
Thankyou Fiona for the added idea that I can help her to learn a way of doing this that is more acceptable to me. I continue to learn so much from this forum day by day!
 

Boogie

Moderator
Location
Manchester UK
Today, at Zoom puppy class, we learned chin rest. Echo was really good at it.

I shall endeavour to teach him to ask using chin rest instead of ‘woof’. The woof ‘ask‘ was learned during toilet training - when it was much rewarded. Now I need it to only mean It need a wee’.

Thank you again @snowbunny. I hope your dog training career is building. You are excellent at explaining just what’s needed.

:clap:

Us humans are far harder to train than dogs and tone is everything, I find. :)
 

Joy

Location
East Sussex
@Shamas mom I think probably Shamas is just barking as an instinctive reaction rather than the sort of deliberate bark to ask for something (which is the sort that can be replaced with a chin rest). And in that case I would go with Mag's suggestion to feed every time he barks as a reaction to next door's dog. You are not rewarding the barking (it's just like us squealing/ gasping when something happens to alarm us) but you are building link that says next-door-dog-bark = treats, so that eventually the bark is nothing to be alarmed about.
 
Thank you again @snowbunny. I hope your dog training career is building. You are excellent at explaining just what’s needed.
Thank you, that's very kind. :)
I have absolutely no dog training career planned, though! I'm just learning loads by training lots of different things to my own very different pooches. I may write some articles one day, if I can find the time :)

Us humans are far harder to train than dogs and tone is everything, I find.
I think dogs just intrinsically "get it" because they don't spend too much time thinking about what "should" be happening! If it works, they do it again. Compared to us - we like bashing our heads against the wall of the "should" :D
 
As far as Shamas is concerned, I agree with @Joy that it's a different scenario to the one we're discussing.

But as far as this...

I don't want to mess up and reward his response to Tiko
We still need to consider this...

Reinforcement drives behaviour. He wouldn't continue with the behaviour if he wasn't being reinforced for it. This doesn't mean that you are reinforcing him, but if he wasn't reinforced, he wouldn't continue to do it.
So if he is still continuing the behaviour, he is being reinforced for that behaviour whether or not he gets food. The outcome of his barking is reinforcing the barking.

Fences are often a triggering factor for dogs. Have you seen this video? It's really interesting!


This is a really great series of podcasts about barky-lungy behaviours. I especially like the ideas in parts 2 and 3 especially: real desensitisation, and remedial socialisation.

 
Fences are often a triggering factor for dogs. Have you seen this video? It's really interesting!


This is a really great series of podcasts about barky-lungy behaviours. I especially like the ideas in parts 2 and 3 especially: real desensitisation, and remedial socialisation.

This happened to my dogs once, I had two with me and we suddenly came to a fence with two dogs the other side - there was mayhem, they were going to kill each other (or so it seemed!) when suddenly the fence stopped and the dogs' behaviour changed to "oh, how do you do" very politely!
 
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