Living with Poppy - Update 7/7/22 (All going south!)

[David]

I've hit a real setback. Poppy has always been a bit difficult but yesterday was an all time low point and I really don't see it improving anytime soon. I took her out for her afternoon walk as usual and reached the little bridge across the river where I normally let her off the lead having checked that the cattle aren't around. Poppy just took off on the cattle side of the river(fortunately they were way off somewhere out of sight, thank goodness). She hunted for nothing in particular over the whole field and just would not recall. In desperation I went after her across the field and she just played dodge. She then leapt in the river, came out and charged all over the place. She finally leapt in the river again and pulled out a large branch. That bogged her down and because she was reluctant to give it up I managed to grab her collar.

This all took the thick end of 20 minutes. I gave up and took her home on the lead.

This morning I kept her on lead until we were about half way around our normal morning walk. I let her off and she seemed back to normal so I thought try a bit of dummy work. No go and she just ran off all over the place with the dummy and would not recall again. I ignored her and walked on so she brought the dummy back. Tried again with basic stuff like sit, heal and round behind and recall. No luck. She just now ignores me completely.

I'm booked for gundog training next Thursday so I've texted a synopsis to our trainer and asked her if she could advise what next including should I give up at this point.

It all seems to be me related and she just won't respond to commands from me. With Rosemary she responds to recall pretty much instantaneously and in all circumstances.

All very discouraging. I'm at the point of giving up with her other than as a family pet. To be frank I'm not really that bothered if she is no good at retrieving but I need her to reach a basic level so she can come out with me on the shoot as a companion dog. Anyway I think that's that really but I'll hang fire until I see our trainer, Judy, on Thursday next week.

 

[Stacia]

Oh David I feel so sad for you, but do take heart, she can and will get better, she is trying it on with you at the moment. Try completely ignoring her when she is being silly and in fact find the small patch of grass at your feet, the most interesting thing in the world, dogs cannot resist coming back to see what you find so fascinating. Perhaps give up retrieving at home and only do it at gundog classes for the moment. Simple obedience for eg when you let her off the lead, she has to stay until you give her permission to go and sometimes, take the lead off, do some off lead heel work and then let her go. I wouldn't give up gundog classes if you want her to be a companion to you on a shoot, she needs to learn that birds will land all over the place and she must be steady, all the training at those classes will help with obedience.

 

[Stacia]

PS, if it helps, my first GSP chased two herds of cows at different times and was a nightmare, she turned out to be a super dog.

 

[Selina27]

Sorry you are feeling so discouraged David.

I think @Jelinga talks a lot of sense above.


I also think there's a lot to be said for taking our foot off the pedal for a while and just not expecting much, allowing a little time for what they have learnt to consolidate. It's surprising I think what goes in even when we think it hasn't , over time and as they mature it comes to the fore and you realise it hasn't all been for nothing.

I'm not sure this making any sense something along the lines of concious learning/unconcious learning. Maybe someone here knows more than me about such things and can explain it !

 

[Stacia]

Sorry you are feeling so discouraged David

I'm not sure this making any sense something along the lines of concious learning/unconcious learning. Maybe someone here knows more than me about such things and can explain it !

I think it is called 'latent learning' also Poppy could be in the middle of an extinction burst and all will be fine. She is probably testing you @David, if she behaves for Rosemary then she does know how to be obedient. Maybe she gets a buzz out of you calling her and not listening, a great game to her, now you have to learn not to play that game, but Poppy play a game you decide on

 

[Atemas]

setback

taking our foot off the pedal for a while and just not expecting much, allowing a little time for what they have learnt to consolidate.

I am so sorry to read this and can really feel how disheartened you are but…..I am sure it is just a setback and think what @Selina27 says makes sense. Also wise words from @Jelinga - just focus on simple obedience out on your walks - play games with her - and leave all the gun dog stuff to the classes

 

[kateincornwall]

Oh dear , I can truly empathise as Reuben was a nightmare from being about 10 months to 18 months old , I despaired of him ever being the dog I had hoped for . His recall went out of the window and frankly he behaved like a thug, testing me to the l limit . I decided to lower my expectations drastically , forgetting the Blinds and Memories , basically all the gundoggery stuff , instead I played ball games with him and slowly he came round . He has his moments but dont they all ? But on the whole he is a different lad to the one I despaired of xx

 

[Cath]

We all have set backs David. I am sure you will sort it out. We all have days like you have had, try not to get disheartened

 

[David]

Thanks guys. Girding my loins and stiffening my upper lip as I type! I'll back pedal a bit and slow everything down. Maybe that's actually needed anyway because Poppy is getting on to be a fully adult Labrador and here I am training her to do stuff that in an ideal world she would have been doing as a much younger dog/puppy.

...... also Poppy could be in the middle of an extinction burst and all will be fine .....

Could well be now that you mention it. When she first arrived with us from the police this was exactly the way she used to behave. I took her for a short walk this afternoon with one of my granddaughters. It was too hot to go far with her (Poppy I mean). We did some simple training with Pops, ie heal work, sit/stay, recall and round behind. Then Ella walked off up the field with a dummy while Poppy sat next to me. Pops did an almost perfect 200 yd retrieve with a round behind finish. So .......

Maybe I need a bit more faith in Poppy and to try not to go down a deep dark hole so quickly when how she is doesn't fit the model of how I want her to be that lives only in my head! Also Poppy is quite, quite different to Lady - a very biddable dog but timid with it. Poppy is easily the most full-on, confident and physically strong Labrador I have come across never mind had to deal with and try and train.

I'll be trying all the suggestions above and let's see how things go but maybe smaller steps and expect less.

 

[Lisa]

I have a feeling you will end up with a wonderful companion dog on your shoots, David. She will get there! Try not to despair.

 

[Granca]

It’s easy to be knocked by setbacks when you’ve made a lot of progress, David. The thought of the cattle lurking somewhere nearby but out of sight can’t have helped either. Chin up! She could be a different dog today!

 

[Peartree]

I hope you don’t mind me replying but your post really struck a cord with me. I’ve been where you are on several occasions and now have come to terms with the limitations and characteristics of my dogs. I’ve got a dog here that wants to do nothing but pick game on a shoot and I’ve no picking up for him. I want him to do working tests and he has no interest in dummies unless they are fired out of a launcher!

What you want from Poppy first and foremost is a super relationship and that’s the most important thing. She doesn’t know that you want her to be a gundog and isn’t doing it to upset you. Try to forget that you have a deadline to train her and just enjoy the journey. It will go much faster that way.

I’m enjoying your reports and it’s interesting to see how things are progressing, especially if you look back to where you came from. Its not easy to catch up on training that needs to be done as foundation behaviour when it’s missed. I am also following a blog by a top field trialler who has taken an older dog returned to her and she’s pulling her hair out as well. You’re in good company!

 

[David]

I hope you don’t mind me replying but your post .....

...... Its not easy to catch up on training that needs to be done as foundation behaviour when it’s missed. I am also following a blog by a top field trialler who has taken an older dog returned to her and she’s pulling her hair out as well. You’re in good company!

Not at all - thank you for your kind post - I found it very encouraging. I like the report of the blogger tearing the hair out! I haven't got any left to pull out.

All Poppy's foundation training was focussed on being a detection dog. Good around people, bomb proof as far as noise and strange environments are concerned, but no manners anywhere else. It took a good few weeks after we got her to get to the stage where I could really start to think about doing a spot of gundog training - just to see really. As you all have said, it's small steps that will win the day.

 

[Emily_Babbelhund]

Just wanted to send sympathy on the recall thing. I so well know this feeling, though unlike Poppy who you did manage a recall with, Carbon has been (with me) consistently hopeless. With @Beanwood he has great recall. Me? No way. It's so discouraging to get your hopes up and then realise your dog is (again) off romping away from you. And I really identify with you saying that it's hard coming to grips with the dog in front of you vs the dog in your head. All those years that I thought I was great at training recall, when in fact my Rotties Duncan and Brogan just didn't want to run away from me to begin with. As Carbon would say, "Pfft!"

You seem very consistent with Poppy (unlike me with Carbon) so I agree with the others that all hope is NOT lost. Your plan to back up a few steps sounds like a good one!

 

[Shamas mom]

Oh David I feel so sad for you, but do take heart, she can and will get better, she is trying it on with you at the moment. Try completely ignoring her when she is being silly and in fact find the small patch of grass at your feet, the most interesting thing in the world, dogs cannot resist coming back to see what you find so fascinating.

After months of struggling with Angel's recall, this was in fact the only thing that worked for us. She would drop what she was doing to run and find out what was at my feet so interesting that I stopped to look at it!

 

[David]

I've just this morning tried the "there's something really interesting in the grass at my feet" ploy.

Out very early around 06:30 to beat the heat I decided to do a spot of simple training in the shade of a large oak tree. Pops ran off with the dummy as usual. So I got intensely interested in the grass at my feet. Magic! I was suddenly accompanied by a young dog with a training dummy. Hilarious!

Anyway after that she did her stuff properly. I think she just tries it on as a game.

 

[David]

Update .....

I've been concentrating on small stuff and really lowering my expectations. I think we are slowly getting there. The issues that need correcting make a list as long as my arm, however .......

Poppy will now bring the dummy back on the first attempt of the day rather than run away with it even if she tends to go around the houses on the way back. Also, she delivers to the hand then goes round behind and sits to finish. Until the end of last week I had to get over the first non-retrieve before she would do anything even remotely properly.

She will also stop now on the whistle and turn around to look at me and then sit at up to around 50 yards away to a raised arm and hand signal which I think is a significant achievement.

Her steadiness has gone out of the window a bit, so I need to put my hand against her shoulder to remind her not to run out until given the command.

Moving all the training into our morning walks rather than a formal session seems to hit the spot. I wait until there are no distractions around and then do a bit with her, move on, and do a bit more.

The standing crops on parts of the walk help because the footpaths now have natural barriers like a tunnel to keep her confined when doing, for example, a stop.

I've got a session with Judy next week on Tuesday. It was put back because of the hot weather. I've asked her to have a critical look at Poppy to see if I'm wasting my time, but I think we (Poppy and I) have moved on, so fingers crossed on that.

So that's all on the plus side, I think. A big worry at the moment that I'm struggling with is her getting wind of an interesting scent and going completely deaf. Poppy has been known to pick up a scent and follow it including crossing the river. This is a big no-no for obvious reasons.

 

[Stacia]

Sounds as if you have made great strides, well done. Re struggling with Poppy getting wind of an interesting scent and going completely deaf (I do believe they really cannot hear as concentrating on the scent!), can you recognise when she is going to go? If so, a quick stop whistle and a very interesting reward in the opposite direction of the scent.

 

[Shaz82]

I've just this morning tried the "there's something really interesting in the grass at my feet" ploy.

I did this today for the first time and thought of you.

I have been having terrible trouble getting Maisy to go for a walk, in fact we now go only where she decides she wants to as it just stresses me out too much. Anyway, short story, I was trying to get her to go a certain direction, she was off lead and just stopped, didn't want to go any further, but then it just came to me . .. the old interesting grass at my feet ploy, and it worked too, she is such a nosy moo

 

[David]

Wish me luck! We have a session with our trainer tomorrow at 12:00 (hope it's not too hot). It's one-to-one so no other owners there to cast judgement.