Neo’s anxieties

This morning I had a long consultation with a behaviourist regarding Neo’s anxieties around noises, separation, and occasionally on walks.

She was very knowledgable and seemed very up to date with her studies. I feel confident that she will hopefully be able to help us work through things to help him, however one of the recommendations she is making is for anxiety medication which is something I have no experience of (in dogs). She was keen to point out that she doesn’t always recommend medication in anxiety cases but believes that it will be of benefit to him as at the moment he is very quickly over threshold. He then stays in a heightened state for a long while afterwards, making any attempts at conditioning/training ineffective as he is not in the right frame of mind. Apparently the medication should help him to be less hyper vigilant and more relaxed, and may also reduce his ‘recovery time’ after a trigger.

I will get her written report in a couple of days and a copy will go to the vet so I can make an appointment with them to discuss further but just wanted to ask in the meantime if anyone else has any experience with anxiety meds for their dogs. Did it help? Any side effects etc? Whilst I’m pleased to be getting a plan in place to help him I’m feeling like a bit of a failure that we are at this point so if there are any success stories out there I’m keen to hear them!
 

Candy

Biscuit Tin Guardian
No experience with anxiety meds for dogs here either, but please don't feel you're a failure. You are doing your best for your dog and no-one can do more than that. :hug:
 
YES! You might want to grab a coffee for this. It may turn into War and Peace :D

I medicated Willow for chronic anxiety. I felt that I should be able to do it all with training - I knew the theory of behaviour adjustment through counter conditioning and felt a failure when I wasn't able to use it to help her. Hers was absolutely awful. She was terrified by the noise of avalanche blasting and the snow plough going past our apartment, thunder, and by gunshot. It didn't matter how quiet these noises were - sometimes I couldn't hear them - they made her panic. She would shut down, find a "safe spot" and shake uncontrollably, her whole body rigid. If we were on a walk at the time, I would crouch down and she would hide under my body. And then, she would refuse to leave her safe spot in the house for days at a time. She was getting progressively worse and I really thought that her quality of life was getting less and less and there would only be one conclusion. I spent so much time building dens for her, and sitting on the floor with her trying to let her know that I wouldn't let anything hurt her. She has always trusted me so deeply when she hurts herself, bringing me her paw to remove a thorn, or presenting me with a limb to rub if she's pulled a muscle, but with this, I couldn't help her and it killed me.
That's why I got into studying, and eventually got my qualifications in canine behaviour, as well as doing many, many other courses.

In the end, though, I knew that I couldn't help her, and went to the vet for a referral to the top guy in the UK, even though I live in Andorra! Well, my vet gently suggested that we try some meds first and I was out of fight to resist anymore at that point.

She started on fluoxetine (Prozac). After about six weeks, I could see some slight changes in her. There was no change in her reaction to her triggers, but she became more confident in other ways. She started to range a little bit farther from me on walks, she would jump up and down terraces more readily, she would compete with Shadow for the chase of a ball. Just small things, but enough to notice. Over the next weeks and months, there were more of these subtle changes and they became cumulative. In the space between snow season and hunting season I hammered the counter conditioning. One course that really helped me was the FDSA course by Dr Amy Cook, "Sound Advice". It was my first FDSA course and I took it at the gold level, meaning I got to submit videos and get personal feedback. Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH160: Sound Advice: Conquering Noise Sensitivity
Just like any training, this course was about teaching the responses we want well outside the environment in which the triggers happen. So we paired the response with a neutral noise to start off with, and then built towards more difficult scenarios over a very long time. Before she had been put on medication, she would panic at the sound of a party popper being fired at a distance where I couldn't even hear it. The fluoxetine put her in a position where she was able to respond to counter conditioning and the techniques we learnt in Sound Advice gave us a framework to apply for that CC. The wonderful thing about Flx is that it appears to return the brain to a similar state of plasticity that it has during learning phases when young, enabling these new lessons to be learned. There have been studies that show that, without the help of Flx, even if CC is achieved in the short-term, the original fears will usually spontaneously return. Here are a couple of good reads on the subject of fluoxetine and plasticity:

I shared one of these with three of the PhDs at FDSA and they discussed it a little in a webinar. The Science Cafe: Socialization and Sensitive Periods in Dogs To be honest I can't remember how relevant this discussion was now - it was a long time ago! - but there may be some interesting bits in it.

Anyway, getting back to Willow.

With the Flx and the CC procedures, we got to the point where she would still react to her triggers but I was able to bring her back down much more quickly. It went from her refusing to leave her safe spot for days or more than a week, to half a day, then a couple of hours. Eventually it was less than an hour. I was pretty happy with that!

But then someone mentioned the success they'd had with their dog layering gabapentin over the fluoxetine. So, we gave that a go. As it so happened, this was right at the start of a 21-day period of constant heavy snow, which means avalanche blasting and snow ploughs passing throughout the day, every day. We started off giving her a dose of gabapentin every eight hours. It starts working after about 20 minutes, and so it's a really fast-acting drug compared to the fluoxetine which takes many weeks to start taking any effect.

Well, the difference was absolutely incredible. By the end of this 21-day period, we got to the point whereI could be OUTSIDE withWillow, playing in the snow with her with blasting happening. I was working so hard on these protocols that I couldn't see the wood for the trees until one day someone walked past us and remarked, "now, that's a happy dog!" and I looked and HE WAS RIGHT! Willow wasn't just going through the motions, she was actually having fun, even with the occasional blasts happening. It was truly remarkable.
Once the threat of snow had passed, we tapered the gabapentin and then stopped it, and the changes remained. People who had known her for a long time commented on the changes in her, not just in times of stress (no-one else really saw those but me and J because she'd just hide herself away), but on regular mountain hikes with friends, too. Even in relaxed environments people said how much happier she seemed. It's as if the drugs had helped to rewire her brain. She wasn't "the old Willow", she was Willow 2.0!

In time, we tapered her off the fluoxetine, feeling she didn't need it anymore. We had been prepared for her to be on it for life, but with the changes she'd gone through, we thought it was worth trying her off it. And, you know what? She's not been back on it since.

Her reactions to these previous triggers are along the lines of a normal startle reaction now. She doesn't like storms, and she'll find somewhere "safe" to go. But she's not rigid and shaking, she'll just go to sleep. If it's particularly bad, I'll give her a gabapentin tablet as a prophylactic. Even that is telling, though: she'll have it with a spoonful of yoghurt whereas before there was no way in hell she'd have taken any food after a trigger. And, once the storm or other trigger has passed, she'll happily go outside on a walk within minutes.

Side-effects: there were none for Willow.

I am now SUCH an advocate for using behaviour meds as soon as possible. If it can save you and your dog the agonies that Willow went through, and us along with her, then it's worth it. I know we were very lucky, finding the correct combination of meds for her first time. I know it can take a few attempts for other people, and there are dogs who do have side effects such as nausea, anorexia, lethargy etc with some of the meds. But you have to try, because we had NONE of that. Willow wasn't drugged into not caring about her triggers. She was simply put in a headspace where we could make the smallest of starts. And now? Now I can fire a dummy launcher with her at my side and she doesn't flinch. I can't understate the amount of work that I put in, too. I don't say that to brag, but to set expectations. It is hard work and often devastating. My advice is to keep a log (do it here on the forum if that works for you) so that, when you're having hard days, you can look back and see the progress you've made. It sounds overly simplistic, but it does make a big difference.

Best of luck to you and your lovely boy. If you got this far, well done! Willow says that if she can do it, then anyone can!!!

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So we started on some practical parts of the plan this morning and I have been putting my ‘DIY skills(!)’ to the test fitting window film* so he can’t see people/vehicles going by outside and I don’t have to live like a vampire with the blinds closed all the time.

I also have a white noise machine arriving later today and yet another baby gate coming too, that only leaves 1 internal door downstairs that doesn’t have one (the toilet! 🤣).

I’ve had the report back from the behaviourist and will be making an appointment with the vet to discuss anxiety meds. I know we’ve likely got a long slog ahead of us but am pleased to be getting some things in place to hopefully start to help him with his worries.

* Top Tip - if anyone else needs to use this stuff, whilst the ‘blind effect’ is nice in theory it really isn’t worth the amount of cursing involved with trimming and getting everything to line up. Plain all the way next time 🤦‍♀️

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Shamas is taking Clomicalm. His issues are sound sensitivity, anxiety, fear-based aggression.....and a general fear of leaving the house.

It took me months when I first got him as a rescue before he'd go for a walk past our block, and he still won't venture to roads bigger than 4lanes 5years later.

The clomicalm is helping a lot, but he's putting on weight. However, we also got a puppy so I'm not willing to pin the weight gain on the clomicalm.

On this medication, we're able to pass by other dogs, as long as I give him guidance as to what to do(walk with me Shamas, keep walking) Off the medication, he'd try to scare the other dog off by behaving aggressively. He's able to walk in wet weather now(everything is louder, and scarier in wet weather) as long as the puppy's there to act as emotional support.

We start with our new behaviorist next month. The last one worked out of a studio, and he couldn't handle the other dogs coming in and out. This one comes to the house.


As someone who tried to work with a fearful dog without medication, and then finally had it offered by a new vet...I can assure you that the journey without is a long one. The fears don't disappear, and the dog can find themselves unable to learn the skills needed to improve because of them. Shamas learns in summer, and regresses every fall. I'm counting on the clomicalm to help him learn more this year, so he regresses less if at all in the fall. If he's not over threshold the second he steps out of the house, he will be better able to handle the world.

Clomicalm works best if paired with behavioral therapy. Shamas hasn't started his yet, on account of the issues with pairing him up to a thereapist. The improvement he's shown is simply in the medication's bring him "down" from those sky high stress levels

We also discussed prozac as an option....my vet favoured clomicalm between the two, because of Shamas sound sensitivities, and episodes of prolonged barking for no aparent reason
 
Neo had his trip to the vet this week and has been prescribed clomicalm (like Shamas). The vet said it is supposed to be particularly effective with separation issues as well as general anxiety. He started taking it this morning and it will probably take a few weeks for any effects to be noticeable so keeping fingers crossed it works for him.

I’ve also started separation training sessions with him this week and so far things are going well. During the sessions he has a special piece of vet bed with a drop of lavender oil on it as a sensory cue and I wear a hat as a visual cue too. I ask him to ‘relax’ once and then step the other side of the baby gate and remain in view, then reward any settled behaviour, preferably on his ‘safe spot’ on the vet bed. He’s a quick study and during his session today he jumped straight up on to the vet bed and laid down, he even had a nap!

I haven’t started on the noises yet as I want to clarify a couple of things with the behaviourist first to make sure I’ve understood everything correctly but the window film and white noise machine are helping in the meantime so there are fewer instances of alert barking and hyper vigilance afterwards (although having a constant ‘babbling brook’ in the background all day is slowly driving me bonkers, my brain keeps listening out for patterns and repititions and I can’t make it stop!).

Here he is being the goodest boy during today’s session 😊

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The white noise machine is a great idea...though I'd have trouble with it too. Like you, I'd be looking for patterns in sound. I'd also need to go to the toilet every few minutes lol!

I love that plan for his separation anxiety. It's simple and consistent. We used the baby gate and rewards with Shamas and saw good results
 
Neo has been facing a new challenge over the last few days as L’s mum is visiting from Spain for a couple of weeks (a challenge for both canines and humans alike! 🤣). The timing isn’t ideal and it’s been quite frustrating as despite repeated explanations and requests there are lots of unnecessary door slams and bangs around the house, however he seems to be coping better and is actually ignoring it some of the time which he wouldn’t have done before which is great 👍 He’s been on the meds for 2 weeks now so this may be a contributing factor.

He’s doing well with his separation training over the last couple of weeks. I’m still staying in sight but am moving around more, sitting, standing etc and he is generally choosing to stay put on his ‘spot’ and showing less interest which is really good. Yesterday the post arrived during the session and he just raised an eyebrow. I’m working up to going out of sight soon and see how he gets on but so far he is responding well.

He seems to be gaining more confidence in general and the frantic stick eating on walks has dramatically improved. He rarely does it now and it is a lot easier to interrupt if he does. I’m really pleased about this as it means we can now go exploring in ‘high stick’ areas again. Here he is smiling in the car after a nice stroll.

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