Shadow's reactivity log

I still think you are braver than me but I can see having the muzzle on Shadow is less stressful to you and it must pass to the dog.
The muzzle helps enormously, as does the long line to start off. Knowing that he cannot harm the other dog (and the other dog isn't going to react if he does snap - I trust this lady to make that assessment, as she has said she will muzzle other dogs of hers when we move onto using them) is liberating. Of course, I still don't want to put him in a situation where he feels he has to react. He did a couple of times, as I have highlighted, but the ones with Katie were absolutely proportionate. I would have reacted more strongly myself had he not been muzzled, and that's no good for anyone. As it is, you can see how quickly he brushes himself off and returns to pretty relaxed after those encounters. I am absolutely sure that, had he not had the muzzle on, I would have put the lead on him at that point, and it would have been a very different picture for us all.

He doesn't love wearing it for a long time, and I need to top up his conditioning of it, but it works wonders to relax me.
 
I just read that back and it sounds like he had disproportionate reactions that weren't with Katie - he didn't :D
I'm not in love with the fact he ran up to the fence, but as it turned out, he did really well there, too.
 
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Joy

Location
East Sussex
Very interesting to watch and great how much more relaxed Shadow becomes. It was such a well- thought-out session - obviously you had planned it carefully. Was this private land - could you be sure you weren't going to meet any other dogs?
 
Very interesting to watch and great how much more relaxed Shadow becomes. It was such a well- thought-out session - obviously you had planned it carefully. Was this private land - could you be sure you weren't going to meet any other dogs?
No, it's not private land, and we can never be totally sure we're not going to meet other dogs, but the other lady lives as rurally as we do, so there is little chance of it. Even if it were private, lots of the farm dogs are free-roaming, so you can't guarantee you wouldn't meet any. Plus, the trespass laws are very different here in Spain to in the UK; as long as there is no wall or fence, you can walk where you like.
There is a lot of land here, and the population density is incredibly low, so it's a very different scenario to the UK. Plus, people often don't walk their dogs as such. Town dogs would get walked around town, and in the countryside, people just let them out the door and off they go. This is one of my issues - finding dogs to practice with!
 
Today was our second session with Katie, and I couldn't have been more pleased with how it went. We started off the same way, muzzled and on a long line. When he saw her come out of the house, he went a bit stiff, but as soon as we started walking, he was totally chilled out. You can see on the video that, from the get-go he was really relaxed. We went a different way this time, so didn't have to walk past the runs of dogs to start off with.
I can't see one point of concern in the whole 40-minute video. I reduced it down to some of the highlights. My favourite bit is at 1:45, where he ran straight past Katie without any avoidance behaviours, or tension. Just lovely!

I worked on some figure-8s when we got back towards the runs. This worked really well with a Mali bitch who was in one of them, and then we did it with another bitch (pit mix) and 7-week GSD puppy afterwards. That needed a bit more management, as the bitch was a bit more vocal and fence-running, but N fed her to keep her calm and Shadow did really well. The video from those bits wasn't any good - I'll set the camera up from the side next time to get a better view. It's interesting to have another person watching me, as she let me know when I was getting a bit tense in the shoulders myself so I could have a "shake off". She also commented on how his tail dropped from its alert "flag" position at exactly the same point as I saw him make eye-contact with me for the first time, rather than scanning the environment.

She's not convinced about my plans for next steps (training an auto-recall when he sees another dog) but I've talked it over with some other dog people, and reckon it's still a good idea. Her concern is that it will relate to him that there is something to be worried about, but I'm not convinced that's true. It worked on him chasing rabbits, and that's a very high arousal thing, so I can hope for similar success here. And we can always change plans if it doesn't work out.

 

Beanwood

Administrator
Your notes are really useful. Like the over all goal, followed by the session goal. This way progress can really be evaluated, followed by plan for the next session. If things don't go quite according to plan, you can work objectively based on video feedback.

It is also really inspiring to see 2 different trainers, with different styles, working together to support each other, and your dogs benefiting from a double whammy of experience and observation. :celebrate: As an aside, I do get a bit tired of the "them and us" attitude.

Really enjoyed reading your notes, and looking forward to your next session! Just brilliant Shadow! :sun:
 
As an aside, I do get a bit tired of the "them and us" attitude.
Totally. It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't change anything. Only through collaboration will change happen. I'm open to listening to her explanations of how she would do things differently. If she somehow convinced me there was a good reason for using a very mild aversive, then I would consider it long and hard. I can't envisage a scenario where that would happen, but if I'm not open to the possibility that there may be something I can learn from different techniques, then how can I expect others to be open to my way? By starting from a position of respect, we can discuss different options fully, and we can both pass on information to the other. I can say "I see how that might make a quick behaviour change which could be beneficial with ..., but I wouldn't do that with my dog in this instance because....". If I were to shut her down when she suggested whatever it might be, then there's no conversation to be hand. No learning opportunities. And, more importantly I think, it gives us both an opportunity to humanise the "other side". I can see that she's not a monster who uses punitive methods as her only tools and to be on some power trip. She can see I'm not an airy-fairy tree hugger who sets no boundaries for their dog. We both love our dogs. Neither of us will tolerate cruelty. There are really more similarities between us than there are differences!

Anyway, off my pedestal, I have dogs to train! And, I suppose, a bit of work to do |(
 
Totally. It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't change anything. Only through collaboration will change happen. I'm open to listening to her explanations of how she would do things differently. If she somehow convinced me there was a good reason for using a very mild aversive, then I would consider it long and hard. I can't envisage a scenario where that would happen, but if I'm not open to the possibility that there may be something I can learn from different techniques, then how can I expect others to be open to my way? By starting from a position of respect, we can discuss different options fully, and we can both pass on information to the other. I can say "I see how that might make a quick behaviour change which could be beneficial with ..., but I wouldn't do that with my dog in this instance because....". If I were to shut her down when she suggested whatever it might be, then there's no conversation to be hand. No learning opportunities. And, more importantly I think, it gives us both an opportunity to humanise the "other side". I can see that she's not a monster who uses punitive methods as her only tools and to be on some power trip. She can see I'm not an airy-fairy tree hugger who sets no boundaries for their dog. We both love our dogs. Neither of us will tolerate cruelty. There are really more similarities between us than there are differences!
I want to make a response to this but can't quite find the words - just :clap:

As an aside I see Sporting Saint are now selling clickers. It's not very long since I read a post by a very well known +R gundog trainer that she didn't think she'd see the day:)
 
I promised I would update this and I've just not had the time yet. I have oodles of videos I've not edited yet, so hopefully I'll get onto that this weekend. Anyway, here's a bit of a recap.

The session before last, Shadow and Katie were bimbling about as they had previously. Shadow was off his line and unmuzzled, and they were quite happy together, as before. Suddenly, he went for her. You can see it in this video. Note: it is very short but it is not pleasant to watch at all. I have put it on twice, once without sound and the second time with.

Katie ended up with a superficial puncture wound to her eyelid.


**NOTE**: I reserve the right to delete any comments, now or in the future, that I deem to be unhelpful. I know you lot wouldn't, but who knows who else might join in the future :)

So, obviously this was very worrying, because neither of us saw it coming, other than in that short moment, and both of us were baffled as to what caused it. We were going on the assumption that Shadow was unhappy with proximity of unfamiliar dogs, but at this stage, Katie was no longer unfamiliar, and they had been in very close proximity several times in this same walk without any signs of discomfort. My initial thought was that he felt trapped by the wall, but it left more questions than it answered.

Anyway, moving on to the next session. I took Squidge with me because she's got such good body language, and I thought she might help him to relax, if Katie was more occupied playing with her. We would just be walking as a slightly bigger group, with lots of lovely natural doggy body language to see. Obviously, Shadow on a line and muzzled the whole time.

This is where it got interesting and N and I had a bit of a revelation. Shadow's issue appears not to be about his proximity to other dogs, but the proximity of those dogs to his family. He's resource guarding us! No matter the distance from us, as soon as Luna approached Katie (who was also on lead), Shadow reacted in some way; either by outward displays, or by actively looking away.

Looking back at the video, this fits. It was when they started back towards us that Shadow snapped. Thinking back to previous encounters where I've said I've stayed back and let the greetings happen naturally and they've been OK, maybe it wasn't just that they were natural encounters, but that I was far enough away that he felt he didn't need to guard me! :facepalm:

So, this is the supposition we're working with now. I have plan for tomorrow's session.

Bless N, this is really hard for her, as she's not used to having a pain in the butt like me saying what they will and won't do with their dogs. It's interesting, though, as it puts me in a position of having to explain (very politely and respectfully) why I don't think that things she suggests are ideal.

For example, knowing that I wasn't going to use any physical corrections, she suggested that we have Luna and Katie doing their thing. Every time Shadow reacted, I would give him a firm "No", put him in a down-stay and then go over to fuss Luna and Katie. He would learn that the consequence of his behaviour was that the opposite of what he wanted to happen, happened.
It totally makes sense from a behaviour point of view - the dog learns that the thing he's doing makes things worse for him not better, and so he stops performing that behaviour.
My argument is that this approach isn't going to make him feel better about the proximity between Katie and Luna (and me). In fact, quite the opposite. So, whilst I agree that it probably would suppress the behaviour, it doesn't address the root cause of that behaviour. Not only that, I can see it punishing my down-stay. If you teach compliance through the use of corrections, then things like the down-stay would be less likely to degrade in this situation than when they're trained using pure R+. It's interesting to think about.

No N-bashing, please - she isn't from our world and so this is a new way of thinking for her. We have to give the humans as much support as we do the dogs when they're learning new ways of doing things. I don't have all the answers, for sure, so we're trying to work out together how to progress and get the best long-term outcome for Shadow.

I've come up with a plan for tomorrow morning that I hope works for us all. Resource guarding a handler and/or other dogs is a tough one to think of practical ways to address. Most of the RG protocols are based around food and/or objects, spaces etc, which are far easier from a practical perspective to address than this, so rather than telling you what I have come up with at this point, I'd be really interested to hear any suggestions you may have because this may not work and I might need other ideas! Anything and everything welcome!
 

Cath

MLF Sales Coordinator
I don't have anything to say, because I have never had this with my dogs. I do respect you for all the hard work you are doing to help Shadow.
Can I ask please Fiona when did Shadow first do this, was he very young or did it just happen one day.
 
Can I ask please Fiona when did Shadow first do this, was he very young or did it just happen one day.
It started when he started into adolescence. He was a friendly puppy, behaviour well within the realms of normal. When he hit adolescence, he started to get bullied by other dogs we met; being an inexperienced owner, I didn't worry too much about it, but in the space of about two weeks, he started "getting his own back first", and that's where I'm sure it stems from. That's why I'm SO conservative about "socialisation" these days, because the long-term damage you can do to a sensitive youngster at that formative time is dramatic and long-lasting.
 

HAH

Moderator
Location
Devon, UK
Wow, this is tough. The video, and the practical solution. Firstly, thank you for posting the video - it must have taken some courage to share and to revisit in such detail, and I know you're brave at tackling these difficulties head-on but you didn't need to post video, so thanks; it helps understanding a lot, and I'm sure there will be people it helps in terms of their own dog's reactivity issues.

I watched it a couple of times, as I found it tricky to see any trigger point the first time. Having read your text, this now makes complete sense - what I see in my novice perspective as 'just' Katie turning towards you both is clearly a trigger in itself. A small but interesting question that popped into my head is: do you think Katie recognised it as a 'uh-oh' moment? In that I'm guessing in situations such as 'standard' resource guarding of e.g. a toy, the non-aggressor may have some inter-dog appreciation that if they go for Rover's ball, Rover may react. But in this sort of situation, it may be less likely the other dog will understand the risk before Rover has reacted. This might be an impossible 'what if', but in a more 'mainstream' conflict situation the other dog might be able to appease in order to mitigate or reduce the power of the attack. By the way, I hope my language isn't offensive or upsetting; I'm trying to use appropriate language, but please tell me if I get it wrong (things like 'attack' might be completely off).

I can understand why N suggested the down and no approach, but understand more why you want to take a different route. She's a generous soul to go along with you on this journey, and hopefully it'll benefit everyone in the long term.

I'm not sure what I'd be doing in your shoes, but I guess I'd want to maybe assess a little more, things you might know the answer to already: is there any sign of RG of you from Shadow within his family? With the other dogs? Or with J? Is the RG only when others approach you, or is it when you approach others too? And is it just dogs, or is it dogs and people? Or e.g. dogs and cats? And does he RG just you, or is it the other dogs, or J?

I suppose I'd be looking to take heat out of Shadow's need to guard by very slowly building tolerance. So if the RG is only when other dogs approach you, and he's fine with you approaching other dogs - this might be something like Shadow on a boundary next to you; Katie (or other dog) on a boundary next to their human a way away; gradually over time, working on Katie and owner stepping towards you, then returning to the boundary. Monitoring Shadow, and slowing down if he's uncomfortable. Mixing it up with distance, duration and difficulty in terms of breaking the sight line (e.g. a fence), having a different physical orientation to the dog, being higher up, lower down, noise distractions etc. A challenge would be how subtle his indications are, or if he has a very short fuse, but knowing him as well as you do would help with these things. Alongside that would be confidence building games, improving working independently, thinking in arousal - all stuff you do already. Not sure this fits the bill, bit I'm keen to see other thoughts!
 
It started when he started into adolescence. He was a friendly puppy, behaviour well within the realms of normal. When he hit adolescence, he started to get bullied by other dogs we met; being an inexperienced owner, I didn't worry too much about it, but in the space of about two weeks, he started "getting his own back first", and that's where I'm sure it stems from. That's why I'm SO conservative about "socialisation" these days, because the long-term damage you can do to a sensitive youngster at that formative time is dramatic and long-lasting.
I'm going to second all of this. Shadow is Cupar. My last pup, socialisation was never heard of. Never had any issues with her. Cupar was socialised around everything and dogs are the only thing we have a problem with. Adolescence other dogs reactions to him changes and then he changed after the third dog had a go.
 
Thanks for the video. Well done for showing it. It is hard to see what caused this reaction but I'm inclined to agree about the RG.
As for telling Shadow no and getting down stays, I had a trainer get me doing that years ago, it didn't work and my instinct told me it was wrong but my brain told me I was crap at training.
So I'm in agreement with not going that route, no one could get me now to do that with Cupar.
I'm sorry I have no ideas or advice apart from, trust your instincts.
 
do you think Katie recognised it as a 'uh-oh' moment?
No, I don't, and that's why it's even less fair on her. From what I've read on RG, it's quite common that there is very little in the way of normal escalation, and that dogs will often skip many steps in the aggression ladder.

By the way, I hope my language isn't offensive or upsetting; I'm trying to use appropriate language, but please tell me if I get it wrong (things like 'attack' might be completely off).
Of course not, my comment was guarding against people seeing this out of context and piping up with how irresponsible I was to have let this happen yada yada yada. I don't need that crap :D
I struggle with the language around this, too. It wasn't a fight (because the sweetheart Katie is, she didn't retaliate - if she had done, it could very well have turned into a fight), but using other words can sound like I'm trivialising it, which I'm definitely not. I know that he didn't intend to cause her real harm, because otherwise he would have done, and he wouldn't have come away so quickly. It was "just" a warning, but it was too much, too soon. For me, that is - of course, to him it was a perfectly reasonable and acceptable response.

is there any sign of RG of you from Shadow within his family? With the other dogs? Or with J? Is the RG only when others approach you, or is it when you approach others too? And is it just dogs, or is it dogs and people? Or e.g. dogs and cats? And does he RG just you, or is it the other dogs, or J?
All great questions! No, there is almost zero resource guarding with the others. I can count on one hand the number of times there's been a spat over something very high value in the kitchen, and it's always been when the energy has been very high and they've been bumping off each other. He doesn't guard me against the others at all. He's fine with other people approaching me. He has shown leash "reactivity" for a while (although we've made a huge amount of progress with this more recently and it doesn't happen often anymore), which I always put down to normal threat assessment type stuff, but makes a lot of sense in the RG context, too. I couldn't tell you about cats; they're not something we have to deal with very often and when we do, it's either a chase scenario, or, if I've seen it first, me working on him not chasing it :D
He has always been quicker to aggress towards another dog when Willow is around, but it's not something I had noticed with Luna until our last session. Mainly, probably, because I tend to set Luna loose to greet the other dog while I get Shadow out of Dodge in that situation. Him going nutso about that, I'd have just put down to him going nutso at the dog, not because the dog was close to Luna...
I don't know how he acts when it's just J. J said how good he was when they were back in Andorra together and they walked around town quite a bit, but that was such a different environment for him that he tends to be more on edge about everything and so actually less concerned about other dogs because everything is so overwhelming. In general, I'm always there when he meets other dogs, so it's hard to say whether he reacts the same when it's just J. I had considered having J take a session with N one time to see what he was like, but, although it would give us a bit of information, it wouldn't give us anything that would help his emotional state or behaviour when I am there, so I decided it probably wasn't a valuable use of time.

I don't know what he's like if, say, he's tethered (or someone else is holding him) and I approach another dog. My gut feeling is that he'd be just as anxious as when the other dog approaches us. It made no difference to him when it was Luna going up to Katie or vice versa - it was the proximity between them that he didn't like, rather than who instigated it.

Thanks for your thoughts, they're all very useful :)
 
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