Socialisation with the benefit of hindsight

[UncleBob]

Hi all,

For my next blog post I'm writing about puppy socialisation. As I'm doing my research and going back over old notes that I kept when Harv was a puppy I got to thinking about what I might do differently if I were in the same situation again.

For example, we were encouraged to 'meet and greet' every dog that we came across - I'm no longer convinced that this was a good idea. And kids on bikes - we certainly should have tried to stage more of those encounters (Harv had a bad experience at one point when a child on a bike nearly ran into him - and he is still wary of kids on bikes now).

So, if Dr Who arrived in her Tardis and took you back to the time when you got your puppy what would you do the same and what would you do differently?

 

[Boogie]

Zaba and Tatze have been staying together for many holidays a year since they were tiny. I look after Zaba and my friend looks after Tatze every holiday. Now that we are both retired they are together a lot.

Which is great.

But ... I wish I hadn’t let them play so rough when they were little. Tatze is wonderful and gentle with my pups inside and in the garden - but on free runs she is just too rough - and I’m sure that’s because her and Zaba were like that from day one. Oddly, she’s fine with all other dogs.

It means I only take her with the pup once a week and then I keep her on lead until the pup is really big and strong and can play at her level, by that time they are nearly twelve months old. Mr Boogs does all the Tatze and Zaba walks.

So yes, I’d go back in the Tardis for that.

 

[Selina27]

Great thread !

I've thought about this quite a bit. I'd never set out to "socialise" a puppy before, I don't think it was heard of when we had our family dogs and later dogs were on a busy working farm where in the main it tends to happen naturally.

I think the first thing I would say is try to suss out what kind of temperament your puppy has, and don't assume that they will meet the world in the same way! I see puppies out being socialised just sitting quietly in the back of the car or in their owners arms taking it all in, but Cass was never like that, she was always trying to get out and interact with whatever was going on which is her character more than puppiness,

we were encouraged to 'meet and greet' every dog that we came across - I'm no longer convinced that this was a good idea.

Yes, I would agree, I think learning to ignore would probably be better.

With other dogs I should probably have worked harder on a settle cue in their presence, as she has found it hard to chill if another dog is around.

I suppose what I learnt about "socialisation" is that it is more about seeing and hearing the world as it is and being able to deal with different things, rather than actual interactions.

 

[Emily]

Oh this one is my biggest "training" regret!

We interpreted socialisation as "find as many different people/animals/machines/situations as possible, get super excited and run up to introduce yourself to show it's not scary"

Positives: we have a dog that is happy and excited about new things and happy to meet new people and be in new situations.

Negatives: do I even need to explain? I created a bouncing monster that I "trained" to run up and enthusiastically greet everyone

 

[snowbunny]

To me, the amount of socialisation is FAR less important than the quality of the genetics in the first place. Squidge had very little interaction with adult dogs before 8 weeks, but she knew exactly how to behave around W&S from the offset, without having been taught any lessons. She just instinctively speaks "dog". She never once acted like a typical puppy around them, never jumped on them, even on the first meeting. She didn’t even try. She knew they were telling her to do one! On the other hand, other dogs were totally fair game, and she was a normal puppy with them, if they allowed her to be. As an adult, she still has a brilliant sense of dogs. She knows exactly what to do to get the best outcome, whether that be with a playful dog, an OTT dog, a scared dog, or a socially inept dog.

I’d say that the two biggest potential pitfalls during socialisation are over-facing a timid dog, and creating frustration in a sociable one. Either of these have potentially disastrous long-term consequences. So I think that it’s an important lesson that a puppy doesn’t get to greet every other dog, but you have to be very careful to ensure this doesn’t tip too far into frustration, which is a really big cause of reactivity.

As always, it depends on the individual dog. You have to be aware of the dog's behaviours and learn to interpret those, and respond sensitively to them.

I created a bouncing monster that I "trained" to run up and enthusiastically greet everyone

Meh, I'd say this is unlikely. I think it's more likely just Ella's happy-go-lucky temperament. Squidge is the same by nature. She is good at not running up immediately now, and waiting to be sent, but she is always itching to go and greet, and that's without me doing what you did.

 

[Charlie]

Hattie is our first dog ever and I hadn't heard of socialisation. We also got her at 13 weeks so she wasn't out and about until she had her jabs. I'm not totally convinced by this 16 week socialisation window. Hattie was a school gate dog, came every day with me to drop/pick up my children also for after school activities/clubs. We always had other children in our house, always children on bikes and running around. We went to puppy class and obedience class until she was around 18 months old. She is kind, gentle, loving to other animals, children, the elderly well just everyone. Nothing worries Hattie, no sounds, traffic, tractors, shoots. Even all the noise, smells and constant movement at the hospital/hospice didn't phase her in the slightest. Hattie doesn't have a bad bone in her body, so I must have done something right.

Things I would change. To be able to sometimes ignore other dogs and greet when told you can. Only allow people to say "hello" when all paws are on the ground. An early settle cue. The things that I have learnt on the forum. xx

 

[Cupcase]

If I could go back in time it would be to teach Cupar how and when to greet humans. I made the mistake of allowing the human to throw toys for him to fetch, all the while believing that this would reinforce good feelings towards people. Instead it reinforced a behaviour of expecting every visitor to interact with him. I'm now left with a dog that finds it difficult to settle when lots of humans are about.

Cupar may be dog/dog reactive but I really believe this is more to do with his personality and not having confidence, rather than something that could have been prevented by socialisation. Cupar didn't have his first bad encounter with a dog until he was 11 months old, so well past the socialisation window.

 

[kateincornwall]

I am not a great believer in the socialisation window of opportunity , having adopted numerous older mature dogs who had not mixed terribly well I speak purely from my own experience . I just think that you can teach an old dog new tricks , albeit with a lot more patience than with a puppy , but it can be done for many dogs . Some of course will be a challenge which may not be overcome through no ones fault but genetics x
I wish that I had taught the settle cue to Reuben , he isnt as bad as he used to be but oh boy , he loves visitors so much , and if they have a dog with them then its manic for a few minutes . My sister is coming down in three weeks time , I think I might arrange her visit on Reubens playgroup day . Chicken out , me ? Yes

 

[Boogie]

Our pups are not allowed on free runs until they are 17 weeks old. Until then they are taken into many, many situations but the only other dogs they meet are other GD pups at puppy class. At puppy class, which they start at 12 weeks old, they are taught to ignore the other pups.

So it’s ages before they get to properly greet other dogs.

It hasn’t caused any problems - they all speak ‘dog’ exceptionally well.

 

[snowbunny]

It hasn’t caused any problems - they all speak ‘dog’ exceptionally well.

I think that probably comes down mostly to their breeding programme selecting for dogs that have really good solid temperaments. Genetics isn't the be all and end all, but it makes a huge difference to the puppy's innate abilities. Not to mention the epigenetics from things like in utero experiences, which I'm sure Guide Dogs are all over!

 

[Charlie]

I totally agree with @kateincornwall Dealing with the dog in front of you, not what other people say or do. If the 16 week window is the key to good socialisation then Hattie is the exception and a great one at that. xx Obviously a lot more hard work goes in to Charlie. His socialisation with all humans is second to none it's just everything else!! xx

 

[Boogie]

I think that probably comes down mostly to their breeding programme selecting for dogs that have really good solid temperaments. Genetics isn't the be all and end all, but it makes a huge difference to the puppy's innate abilities. Not to mention the epigenetics from things like in utero experiences, which I'm sure Guide Dogs are all over!

Yes - absolutely.

Echo is very different from the others, he’s much more of a people person than a dog person - but, even at five months old, he gives all the right signals to aggressive dogs, playful dogs and all the nuances in between.
.

 

[Lab_adore]

Hi all,

For my next blog post I'm writing about puppy socialisation. As I'm doing my research and going back over old notes that I kept when Harv was a puppy I got to thinking about what I might do differently if I were in the same situation again.

For example, we were encouraged to 'meet and greet' every dog that we came across - I'm no longer convinced that this was a good idea. And kids on bikes - we certainly should have tried to stage more of those encounters (Harv had a bad experience at one point when a child on a bike nearly ran into him - and he is still wary of kids on bikes now).

So, if Dr Who arrived in her Tardis and took you back to the time when you got your puppy what would you do the same and what would you do differently?

Just about everything

 

[M.F.]

By “socialization” you’re not including training, right? I can’t help but think you can’t separate them. Snowie is like Squidge—he is the easiest dog around other dogs cos he just knows how to speak dog (admittedly, I’ve given him tons of opportunities (socialization?) his whole life to meet well-adjusted dogs). I’m constantly amazed at his decision making abilities to greet some dogs but to avoid others. I totally trust his judgement. But I wish that I’d got recall right. Because, while sometimes he decides he MUST go say hallo to that dog over there, it might not suit me or the other dog walker. Or it might be across a busy road (dangerous!). If he had better recall, I’d have the socialization part and the management part working perfectly together. Also, he doesn’t like waiting around. He’s a doer. If I’m hanging around having a chat, he’ll bark to say Come on! Let’s go! It’s annoying. I should’ve trained—or is it socialized?—a better level of patience in him.

 

[HAH]

As always, it depends on the individual dog. You have to be aware of the dog's behaviours and learn to interpret those, and respond sensitively to them

I wish I’d been able to understand Kipper from the off, but I’d say at just over 2 I’m starting to get a handle on him. I’ve found the pressure to know what’s best for him as an individual quite difficult, so wish I’d known early on to take it easy, not to feel pressured to do too much too soon.

 

[snowbunny]

I wish I’d been able to understand Kipper from the off, but I’d say at just over 2 I’m starting to get a handle on him. I’ve found the pressure to know what’s best for him as an individual quite difficult, so wish I’d known early on to take it easy, not to feel pressured to do too much too soon.

You can't expect anyone to understand the nuances of dog communication from the get-go. It's just not reasonable. That is why I think it is far better to err on the side of caution with those early experiences. You'll do a whole lot more damage from not understanding a sensitive dog's needs than you will from under-exposing (if there is even such a thing) a robust dog. And it can be really difficult to even recognise what a sensitive dog is - Willow seemed really bold to me as a puppy, but there was a lot that I didn't see because I didn't have the experience. As others have said, whilst there is certainly a window of early learning (we know this from the way the physiology of how brains develop), learning does not stop once that closes. It is not "now or never" as so often we are led to believe.

When it comes to training, you have to have reasonable expectations, too. As a young puppy, when Squidge was on lead, I could ask her to sit and watch people go by and not interact with them, but off lead on a beach - hell no! If I saw other dogs coming, I would assess their body language and decide if I wanted to just let her run over and say hi, or if I would stop, put her on lead, and ask the owner first. You have to make those judgements, and it takes practice to do so. Up to last year, she would still run to other dogs very often if I didn't catch sight of them in time. She always had a "range" and if they were outside of that she would stop and I could recall her, but that's her - I wouldn't expect all dogs to be the same. Now, she will generally stay with me until I tell her she can go, but she's over three years of age. Granted, we don't have the same opportunities to practice as many of you in the UK, and maybe she would have picked it up sooner over there. Or maybe not. Maybe it just needed the maturity. This is stuff I just don't stress about these days; there is no timescale. Things you practice more become stronger faster. Things that are more difficult for the dog are going to take longer. Every dog is different. Even now, I know that in a new environment, she will regress and won't be able to control herself. When we come to the UK, she will be an excited mess for the first while. That's OK; I expect and understand it now.

What I won't do again is allow people to pet my puppy while I'm holding him/her. I did that when they were still being carried, but I wouldn't do it now. The puppy has no control, very limited options to say no. Ugh, it makes me shudder to think that I allowed it at all. For Squidge, there were no obvious repercussions. Were there with Willow? I can't say, of course, but I wonder what I would be able to see if I were able to watch videos of those interactions now. Nope; for me, it's important that the puppy is able to control all interactions with the other person/dog at their pace.

 

[HAH]

for me, it's important that the puppy is able to control all interactions with the other person/dog at their pace.

I think this will be a huge difference for me next time. Definitely more puppy-led choice from the off

 

[Selina27]

I feel on reflection that I'm pleased I put the effort into "socialisation" in Cassie's early months. As a country dog, I felt it was important that she visited towns and places where there was a lot of busy stuff going on, traffic and noise. For her it's been effective, but perhaps it wouldn't have been if she was by nature shyer..

During her "adolesence" it went on hold a bit, and the thought of taking her out to lunch or whatever was but a distant dream. But now, at rising 4, she's just fine to go to a busy pub or cafe, although she needs encouragement to settle she does do so. I wonder if she'd never gone out and about as a puppy if she would have come to that or not.

I found it incredibly hard to prevent people interacting with her, or allowing their dogs to. Too late did I learn that asking her to sit, and for others to come to her is the answer. I would aim for that another time, but I know I'd find it hard still. Which I guess as @MF suggests is more a training issue.

No, we can't show them everything. Just the other day, when driving through town on a wet day she frightened me witless by barking loudly at someone on the pavement with a brolly up -- it dawned on me that she'd never seen that before!