The Labraventures of Carbón, Spanish (ex-) foster dog extraordinaire

@Emily_Babbelhund , yes some bleeding will be normal. Don't feel guilty about going ahead with the operation, there was no alternative, he has to be able to urinate! Can you imagine what it must feel like if you are bursting to have a pee and you can't go! If you can get his diet sorted and the crystals won't form anymore, then the op can be reversed. It is all horribly new for you both, but it should settle down soon. I feel for you both x
 

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
Letting the Leish continue in an active state is a really bad idea. I don't know why anyone would ever suggest that it's the right thing to do
He's completely asymptomatic but consistently tests positive for Leish in his blood panels, so is that considered active or inactive?

I got a LOT of very confusing advice about Milteforan and Glucantime in Spain. The vet at the shelter told me point blank "Milteforan doesn't work". My regular vet in Spain told me Milteforan works but it would blow out Carbon's kidneys (this was two years ago at the height of his kidney troubles). I took him to a Leish specialist who said, "Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but the side effects can cause more harm than good." Not to mention all the horror stories I've heard from people who have given it to their dogs...it's scary AND confusing. 😟
 
He's completely asymptomatic but consistently tests positive for Leish in his blood panels, so is that considered active or inactive?
If it is evident in his blood, it is active.

"Milteforan doesn't work"
Total bollocks! If that were the case, there wouldn't be thousands of dogs on the Living with Leish page who have recovered from horrific Leish using Milteforan. This is what is used for the most severe cases, when the dog is at death's door and in complete renal failure because it is so gentle on the kidneys. And just look up the clinical trials, they're all there to state that it absolutely does work.

but the side effects can cause more harm than good
Here's the thing, not wanting to scare you, but left untreated Leishmaniasis will kill your dog. Maybe not today, maybe not next year or the one after, but when those parasites get triggered, they can cause severe symptoms very quickly. Allopurinol is not something that can reduce the parasitic load.

The side-effects from using Milteforan (Miltefosine) are generally mild vomiting and diarrhea. Read the last paragraph under "Miltefosine" from this book: Canine and Feline Infectious Diseases

My regular vet in Spain told me Milteforan works but it would blow out Carbon's kidneys
Again, nope. The last sentence of that paragraph in the above book states:
In contrast to meglumine antimoniate*, miltefosine** does not appear to contribute to renal pathology in dogs.
* Glucantime
** Milteforan
And there is loads of evidence in scholarly articles to support this.
Glucantime leads to significant lesions forming on the kidneys, which is why it is only given to dogs with healthy kidneys. But this is not true at all of Milteforan.

The nastiest side-effect is that it is very caustic if you let the liquid touch the dog's mouth or throat. But you can prevent that by feeding it in such a way that you protect the digestive tract from burning. That's why you use the food bombs, which are made from something smelly (often tuna) and Flora ProActiv, which helps it slide down (any other low-fat margarine would be fine). Here's a document about making food bombs: Food bombs

Leish seems to be one of those infections that vets get their knickers in a twist over, and I don't know why that's the case. It's really quite simple. I'd encourage you to read the research for yourself, because it's very clear. Again, the LeishVet website, put together by vets from a University in Madrid, is very good and supported by the science.

Not to mention all the horror stories I've heard from people who have given it to their dogs
There are horror stories about any drug you choose to pick out of the air. It's just the way it is. If that's all you're looking for, you'll convince yourself that's all there is. But why not pop onto the Living With Leish page and ask for real people's experiences. Share your concerns and see what they say?
 
Just reading your latest updates. What a shock to have not known what the op was actually all about. My heart sank when I read that. But he must wee, so at least for that. I look forward to hearing what your regular vet says. Does she speak English well? Or could you get a translator?
 

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
Does she speak English well? Or could you get a translator?
She speaks English well enough to fill in the bits that I don't understand in German. At the clinic (where he had the surgery) it was 100% German, so that's always more challenging. All it takes is for me to not understand or misinterpret a few key words for it to go south pretty quickly. Especially dangerous when I think I understand but actually don't.

I'm still reeling from having missed - somehow - the bit where they told me my dog would be urinating out of a bleeding slit where his poor abused balls used to be. :oops:
 
All it takes is for me to not understand or misinterpret a few key words for it to go south pretty quickly. Especially dangerous when I think I understand but actually don't.
Yep, it's so easily done. I did it with Ginny when I got the results of her biopsy and I heard "it is cancerous" instead of "it's not cancerous". I mean, better that way than the other, but still!
 
the bit where they told me my dog would be urinating out of a bleeding slit where his poor abused balls used to be. :oops:
You must feel bad about this Emily, little wonder, like he's been emasculated somehow and had his body altered. But he doesn't know though does he, really? He probably does know however that he can now pass urine and isn't in retention any more.

Much love and many hugs Emily to you both xxxx (And just remember Carbon's willy is the only one Cassie has ever licked, still :hearteyesdog:)
 

Lisa

Moderator
Location
Alberta, Canada
I can only imagine the stress of all this, @Emily_Babbelhund! Take it one step at a time and try not to get overwhelmed. Poor Carbon’s got a lot going on at the moment, but I know you’ll get it all figured out eventually. Hope you find a path forward with the Leish stuff that you feel confident about. In the meantime, first step is healing from the surgery. Sending hugs and prayers for you both! :hug: :hug:
 

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
Yep, it's so easily done. I did it with Ginny when I got the results of her biopsy and I heard "it is cancerous" instead of "it's not cancerous". I mean, better that way than the other, but still!
That 'mishearing' must have made your heart stop!

It's a real disadvantage - I think it becomes even more perilous the more fluent you are. Your brain does an awfully good job of convincing you that you've heard things one way when it was another.

Heck, I'm very willing to admit that I misunderstood about the Milteforan. Those early days with Carbon were so stressful and they were throwing so much at me - anaemic, hip dysplasia, funky kidneys, the works. All in rapid fire Spanish and with two dogs to wrangle. I still remember Paul happily chewing the straps off my messenger bag when the vet at the shelter told me he was sure Carbon had severe hip dysplasia (he didn't and doesn't). My brain kind of exploded.

I think what I will do with Carbon is tomorrow we get the post op check and I ask if we can have a blood draw for a full panel. Then I make a special appointment to JUST talk about the milteforan and another to talk about changing his diet.
 

Emily_Babbelhund

Mama Red HOT Pepper
You must feel bad about this Emily, little wonder, like he's been emasculated somehow and had his body altered. But he doesn't know though does he, really?
Emasculated I don't give a fig about. He was neutered before I got him and I've always had neutered dogs and still think of them as full on silly boys. But you are spot on about the body alternation. It bothers me.

I also pride myself on grilling surgeons (human or canine) with questions until they scream for mercy. I hate surprises, especially around medical procedures and trying to understand everything to the best of my capacity as a non-medical person is one of my strategies to deal with the stress.

I would have also very much liked to ask if there was an option that left carbon with functioning plumbing. Because what he's got now is not (yet) what I'd call functioning. At least I know this surgery can be reversed because I don't see how this is not going to be a huge infection risk on an ongoing basis.

Poor boy is so sore now that he is refusing to walk or to pee. I finally managed to bribe him to his pee spot but he won't go a drop. I'm hoping he breaks his strike by this evening. I'm putting cool compresses on this bits and he seems to like that. 😟
 
Top