The right trainer for you but the wrong trainer for your dog?

[Peartree]

A few times a year I go to a well known and well respected positive gundog trainer. There is lots of coffee drinking and lots of discussion and I’ve learned lots, but as the courses tend to last all day, there is not much repetition of exercises.

I went recently for a week’s course and my dog Diesel was a complete idiot the whole time, never returning with the retrieve and generally playing about. By the Wednesday lunchtime she was suggesting to me that I should give up gundog training with him and take up something else like scentwork or agility. I’m pretty certain that she wasn’t joking.

A year ago I think I would have given up and gone home and cried. Now I can just laugh, as with my experiences in dog training I’ve become more robust. Diesel has done some super work with me this year but just never with this particular trainer. In fact the week before I had been with him in a traditional and highly controlled 10 dog walk up which lasted over 3 hours and he returned with the dummy every time. Ok, he peed on the way back once, and he often curved a little but he delivered to hand each time.

I believe that the difference is that he can’t cope with conversation and discussion between retrieves with the positive trainer and that the retrieves are not technically demanding or long enough for him.

Does anyone else find that their dog is quite different in certain situations and with different trainers? I will be returning later this year with Bingley aka Captain Sensible, with this trainer but I will not be taking Diesel again!

 

[JES72]

Could you go to the sessions without your dog? You might learn more while watching others work their dogs and what the trainer is teaching without the distraction Diesel playing up because he’s bored. I think you are right in having training for you, and training for your dog.

 

[Stacia]

It does seem rather a long day and if there is a lot of conversation your dog is probably bored. I would try a trainer who does perhaps a couple of hours if it is a group training and just an hour if it is one to one.

 

[MellowYellow]

Personally I find weekly training sessions of one to two hours much more conducive to learning, both for me and my dogs, than day-, weekend- or even week-long sessions. Quite a few of the trainers I use have switched to a half-day model, rather than a full day, for their seminars, as they also find the dogs and humans get more out of it.

 

[snowbunny]

Personally I find weekly training sessions of one to two hours much more conducive to learning, both for me and my dogs

Is that in private lessons, or are you in a group? Just wondering how much time each dog would get to practice an exercise if it were a group scenario.

 

[Stacia]

Is that in private lessons, or are you in a group? Just wondering how much time each dog would get to practice an exercise if it were a group scenario.

A dog needs to learn that all retrieves are not for him and being in a group, each dog usually has a go at each exercise and they learn a lot just watching.

 

[Boogie]

All our puppy trainers are excellent and really know their stuff.

We now have a brand new trainer as the last one moved away, and she’s much better. The old trainer spent too long talking, so the pups’ concentration was all taken up being good waiting for the exercise. The new trainer talks us through it - same stuff but so much more interactive for the pups.

 

[MellowYellow]

Is that in private lessons, or are you in a group? Just wondering how much time each dog would get to practice an exercise if it were a group scenario.

It's usually a group; I'm not very keen on 1-1 training. The dogs get plenty of action - there are usually between four to six dogs in the group. As Jelinga says, they are learning all the time, and just watching the other dogs is part of the learning experience. Then too a good trainer sets up exercises where more than one dog is working at the same time, or there are four or five components to an exercise and the dogs all rotate. I find it works well like this, the dogs (and handlers) have time to stop and think between exercises, but there is enough work to do - and they finish while still keen and not too tired.

Not to say that longer sessions are bad, they can be great - but personally I find weekly or bi-weekly sessions that are shorter tend to offer better value and are more useful learning experiences, particularly since you can build on what you were working on the week before, after the dogs have had a chance to practice what they learned.

 

[Plum's mum]

I did a whole day gundog workshop (10-4) when Plum was 6 months old and there were about 10 of us in a large field and then we did 8 consecutive weeks of gundog training when she was 11 months old and there were 6 of us. I thought both were equally good, Plum learned a lot (as did I) from both.
Actually, that's an understatement, both of us had a ball!

There wasn't too much talking in either and lots of opportunities to practise each new thing.

We're doing some scent training in a couple of weeks which was originally going to be in a group of 6 for 4 hours but as I and another person couldn't make this, the trainer is doing us two a two hour session.

(It's been the same trainer for each, with additional helpers for the day workshop.)

 

[snowbunny]

A dog needs to learn that all retrieves are not for him and being in a group, each dog usually has a go at each exercise and they learn a lot just watching.

Yes, I understand that, but thinking about the group situations I’ve been in, they would have to be organised very differently for there to be any value in a one-hour session. Unless the instructor can manage multiple dogs working at once (which would be ideal, and sounds like the case in Karen’s class), an hour would mean that for four dogs, they would technically get 15 minutes of working each, but I’d think that with the setting up, walking out and discussion, you’d be talking closer to half this. At my level I need the opportunity to do more reps to progress my own technique, more so than needing the dogs to get the reps. I think that’s where the value of 1-1s comes in for short sessions, because there’s more time to focus on the handler. I imagine if you’re past needing that input then private lessons are probably less value than having the opportunity for your dog to get used to the environment of other dogs working around them.

So wondering whether those of you who do more training would agree: a private lesson would be more likely focussed on handler skills, or maybe troubleshooting smaller parts of the retrieve chain, and group sessions more focussed on the dog experiencing working in a multi-dog environment? Human focussed vs dog focussed learning?

 

[Selina27]

Does anyone else find that their dog is quite different in certain situations and with different trainers?

Interesting, and really just as a real novice in gundog training I don't see why they wouldn't be, they are individuals after all.
I would say that Cassie has a different attitude to retrieving in different locations, depending on the level of distractions and where I am asking her to work. Also which dummy I use. This much I have learnt about her, and I am just at the moment I am ticking over quietly increasing her desire while I wait for 1.2.1 with a well known trainer at the end of September.

With the small local group I went to through the winter she was beginning to make progress in an open field and other dogs to watch, but when we moved to a new location rife with pheasants and deer it was a complete disaster and we stopped going. She's simply not interested in a dummy in that scene.

I think I am still paying the price for the disastrous class we went to where the dogs were allowed free play before the training began --- gives me absolute nightmares now. What Cassie could do with is a nice steady older dog to work along side for a while......Rourke@jelinga?.....are you there?

 

[HAH]

Human focussed vs dog focussed learning?

My experience of training is highly limited so all caveats, but this really struck a cord; our most recent (general, basic level) group training session had 8 dogs and around 12 handlers in total and was too much. It was as well-managed as could be but at that level where the humans need most input this group set-up didn’t work brilliantly for a 1.5 hr slot.

 

[Heidrun]

I am speaking from a spaniel person’s view point here. I would never take a very young spaniel to group lessons. The hanging around waiting for their turn will short fuse most young spaniels. So one to one lessons with breaks in the back of the car for the dog so that trainee and instructor can talk things through are of much more value. But as the dog progresses and hunting training has been established then another spaniel to quarter alongside is essential so that the dog learns to cope with another dog working close by and to honour another dog’s retrieve.

 

[Stacia]

@Selina27, I'm here .

@Peartree, a group class would need to be at least two hours! I think a combination of 1 to 1s and group class would be ideal.

 

[MellowYellow]

Yes, I agree with @Jelinga, a group session needs to be around 2 hours, for a maximum of six dogs and handlers. @snowbunny, I agree with you that a group session of one hour would be too short.

 

[Lara_Pigletina]

This is an interesting thread. We started going to monthly positive group gundog classes in the spring (now having a break sadly, and after the break will be relocated to North Wales which is unfortunately I think too far to go to Evesham for class again...) and some classes went really well, but others (particularly the last which was water work at the lakes) there was so much waiting round for one retrieve that the Pig started her bored frustrated routine of staring at me, then sneezing at me, then clacking her teeth at me and setting up a squeaky bark that, if not attended to ends up in jumping up and humping of my rucksack I know its a good opportunity to work on calmness, watching other dogs etc. etc. but not for so long, and it just seems a chance for the Pig to practice undesirable behaviours. It did make her very keen when it was finally her turn to do a single retrieve but she was on the edge of madness by the end (as was I). Three hours of that is way too long with so little action. I guess the ideal situation is the occasional group class when you want to specifically focus on calm round other dogs, watching other dogs retrieve etc., but for actually learning work for the dog, one-to-ones I think are much more valuable.

 

[Stacia]

Yes, that is the danger @Lara_Pigletina, too much standing and waiting is very frustrating and can build undesirable habits. I know the class of which you speak and the lakes, went the lakes with another gundog society, super place.

 

[Peartree]

Very interesting to hear everyone’s different experiences. The point I was trying to make is that what suits you may not suit your dog! I like the positive training with a lot of understanding of motive and positive reinforcement but the pace of the class doesn’t suit Diesel.

I’m not sure whether he watches the other dogs and handlers in the traditional class and decides that he must behave as everyone else is being good or whether the faster pace of the traditional classes means that there is less time for him to become frustrated and therefore over aroused.

I certainly leave the traditional trainers feeling happier with the abilities of my dog. It is such a lottery whether you have a trainer who you like and has lessons that suit you, in terms of size of class, length of class, frequency and distance to travel, as all these make such a difference to your chances of successful training.

In the last four weeks I have had such different experiences. A large traditional class where my dog did reasonably well, a positive week long training camp where Diesel was a complete lunatic and most recently a 1:2:1 with a top field trial trainer (who I’d never met before) when my dog was very good. He really liked Diesel and told me that he had great potential.

Different days, different trainers and almost a completely different dog!

 

[MellowYellow]

So wondering whether those of you who do more training would agree: a private lesson would be more likely focussed on handler skills, or maybe troubleshooting smaller parts of the retrieve chain, and group sessions more focussed on the dog experiencing working in a multi-dog environment? Human focussed vs dog focussed learning?

Yes, exactly!

 

[Selina27]

We started going to monthly positive group gundog classes i

I'm very interested to read this, as I'm going there for the 1.2.1 that is unless there are 2 positive gundog trainers near Evesham! I been dragging my heels about it but have finally booked a session, a 1.2.1 to start with so that I can assess the situation, I very much hope to join the group (what a pity, it looks like we will miss each other!) but with Cassie's history I want to hunt, etc, I thought 1.2.1 is best to start with. She is likely to become frustrated and start her mouthing behavior, I guess like the PIgs humping, and I'd like to talk that through first.